The cost of funding care

Discussion in 'ARCHIVE FORUM: Support discussions' started by Skye, Feb 19, 2008.

  1. Skye

    Skye Registered User

    Aug 29, 2006
    17,000
    SW Scotland
  2. Natashalou

    Natashalou Registered User

    Mar 22, 2007
    426
    london
    Well, id love to know where they found a home that would only cost 112k for a four year stay! Based on current fees, my mothers home already nudges towards the 200k mark for four years. Of course we are in London but if its really possible to get good quality care at that price Id love to know where as Id seriously consider moving my mother to make sure her care is selffunded for as long as possible.
     
  3. Canadian Joanne

    Canadian Joanne Volunteer Moderator

    Apr 8, 2005
    16,110
    Toronto, Canada
    For Shame!!

    The costs of long term care in the UK are disgraceful! For a private room in a long term care facility in Ontario the cost is currently approx. £12,400 a year, a semi-private room (2 occupants) is approx £9,300 a year. A person who qualifies for care but does not have sufficient funds for even a semi-private room is accepted none the less. They would pay the bulk of their pension, with about £50 left to them each month. Any balance outstanding is covered by the provincial government.

    Every province is different and from what I understand, we are well off here in Ontario. I've heard horrible things about care in BC and my sister tells me we're lucky Mum is in Ontario with me, as opposed with her in Québec.

    But I think even £28,000 p.a. is outrageous, let along £50k. How can people possibly manage???
     
  4. Louise.D

    Louise.D Registered User

    Apr 13, 2007
    68
    Essex
    care home costs

    I moved my mother from London to Essex as I knew that the homes in Essex were affordable. The cost for her over 4 years would of been £139,984. It worked out at £92.85 per day and that was for a large suite not a room. I don't think that's unreasonable. She had my dads pension and her state earnings pension that covered most of the fees. The homes that she stayed in were 'expensive' the cheaper ones were around £450 per week of which works out at £93,600 over 4 years. Strangely the nursing home that she died in was cheaper than the residential home. (Can't work that one out for the life of me)

    If I had kept her in London the cost would of been £249,600 as they were £1200 per week.

    So I guess it's regional. My mother lived in two homes and they took both self funders and social services funders. The care and accomadation was identical and so was the care.

    I'm not going to bother saving for retirement. Can't see the point. .
     
  5. Skye

    Skye Registered User

    Aug 29, 2006
    17,000
    SW Scotland
    I pay £16,200 pa for a private, en suite room in an EMI unit.

    I certainly couldn't afford London prices.
     
  6. CraigC

    CraigC Registered User

    Mar 21, 2003
    6,630
    London
    Must admit I felt the same when reading the report. I seems care home fees have already doubled for us! If they double again it is terrifying. There seems to be a massive difference between nursing home fees and residential/EMI. Both homes are based in south london but it wasn't much different in dorset. Fees for all nursing homes in area (and there are only a few) are £900 plus. Residential £650 plus. I dread the April increases although I try not to let it get me angry.

    As the report said the savings get drained, the house gets sold and then you hope that the local authority will pick things up when all the money runs out (ok they missed that scary bit out).

    Hopefully something will come out of the green paper, but all a bit late for us.

    thanks for posting the link
    Craig
     
  7. Mameeskye

    Mameeskye Registered User

    Aug 9, 2007
    1,669
    NZ
    Care home fees really irritate me. We moved Mum in in Dec 2003 at which time mum paid £260pw and also receievd £210 nursing care element meaning a total fee of ££470 pw for an ensuite single room.

    Now mum pays £440pw plus the nursing care element of £210 total £650 per week a rise in 4 years of 38% yet a rise to my Mum of 69%. Why it costs the same to nurse as it did four years ago but everything else has increased so much I do not know..well I do..the Scottish exec just did not increase the allowance!

    I do not think that it is going to take 20 years for the costs of care to double! It currently costs my Mum £22880 per year compared with £13520 4 years ago which she was able to cover with her investment income and pensions. Now she is eating into her capital!! The total costs are £24440 when she entered the home and £33800 now. I reckon that if she lives that long (unlikely) that the costs would have doubled in 8 years.

    I feel that the home have us over a barrel for the fees as it is a good home in so may other ways. Moving her would kill her!

    Social Services were going to look into seeing if the council could fund the care and we pay them to take advantage of their preferential rates (and let's face it consumer power) so here's hoping. It may not save Mum anything but here's hoping that they consider it in the council area she is in for all other self funders.

    Why are the elderly exploited so when they ahve contributed so much over all their lives?

    rant over

    Mameeskye
     
  8. chip

    chip Registered User

    Jul 19, 2005
    400
    Scotland
    My husbands is £27,768.52 a year. I don't have a clue who is paying it. Nobody has asked or said anything. Thats now 10weeks but a week of that hospital as well.All i know is that we can't
     
  9. Louise.D

    Louise.D Registered User

    Apr 13, 2007
    68
    Essex
     
  10. Natashalou

    Natashalou Registered User

    Mar 22, 2007
    426
    london
    I dont have a problem with being expected to PAY the fees out of her assetts...Yes, lets be honest, of course it would have been nice, and more importantly what my late father and she wanted, if her grandchildren had received an inheritance ..and I think the reality is that in some cases the unhappiness in paying the fees is in part caused by relations seeing an expected inheritance slowly eroded...this is understandable.
    But my real beef is after self funding for however many years her money does last...there is absolutly no guaruntee that SS WILL pick up the tab for that home and id hate her to have to go somewhere where she had to share, which seems to be the accomodation provided by the few council owned homes left.
    I very much doubt I will be able to pick up the top up fee as thats over £200 per week.
    I also dont really see how she will "manage" on the small pocket money allowance she will be allowed to retain. Thats about £20 per week isnt it..and a hairdo costs £15!!
    As confused as she is my mum kind of knows she doesnt have a guaruntee she can stay there for ever...and although she hates it there in the first place I know she constantly worries about what might happen and where she might have to go after!!
    I think the least that ought to be done is that a guaruntee that SS will pick up the tab ought to be given
     
  11. jenniferpa

    jenniferpa Volunteer Moderator

    Jun 27, 2006
    39,439
    Trouble with that idea is that while most people wouldn't abuse that, there would be some people who placed their person in the most expensive, luxurious home they could find, running down the assets as quickly as possible in the process, and I'm sure that some homes would collude with this. I suppose ideally the agreement would be made prior to placement - that way you have your assurance. However, I imagine the the LA would need many more social workers than they have to make this function properly.

    I was under the impression (Hazel can speak to this) that in Scotland, if you want to receive the personal care allowance or whatever it's called, the only way to ensure that that happens is if the contract is with the LA, and then you pay the LA. Isn't that what that recent court case was about, or have I misremembered?
     
  12. Mameeskye

    Mameeskye Registered User

    Aug 9, 2007
    1,669
    NZ
    Louise :D I can just imagine your conversation with the owner. Though Mum when she moved in thought that she was on Holiday but I would say probably Shearings rather than Kuoni! :D

    I have no problem with Mum being required to contribute to her care. If she had been at home she would have been paying for her own Board and Lodging. However she needs nursing care and was assessed as needing 24 hour care before she left hospital in 2003.

    My annoyance is the fee increases she suffers. She is exploited as quite literally she is in a captive market. She is doubly taxed as she subsidises local council beds as well as paying tax on her income. She suffers as the flagship policy of free personal care for the elderly in Scotland can no longer be "free" as there have been no increases in its level since it was introduced. She gets no attendance allowance, no NHS continuing care provisions apply and she did not block a hospital bed because she was a self funder and therefore was able to pay for upkeep straight away so within 24 hours of us accepting a nursing home she was discharged to the home.

    Moving her would probably kill her so she is held to ransom and cared for very lovingly and the care home group make obscene profits!

    Mameeskye
     
  13. CraigC

    CraigC Registered User

    Mar 21, 2003
    6,630
    London
    Hi Jennifer,

    I do see your point. I think one solution would be for the care homes to provide a little more clarity and guidance to relatives. Why can't they just be more open about their relationship with the local authority. The next step is to simplify and give more clarity in the funding system itself.

    I agree with natasha that it can be hard watching the hard earnt money run down so quickly - it is human nature, but what really worries me is the difficult decisions that families need to make when the money runs dry completely. Do you sacrafic the needs of your own children to pay top up fees? Do you move a parent who is settled and comfortable to avoid top up fees? Those decisions are unfair on any family.

    I've never come across something so complex as the funding system and really hope the green paper recommends simplification and fairness.

    Cheers
    Craig
     
  14. Skye

    Skye Registered User

    Aug 29, 2006
    17,000
    SW Scotland

    No, you're quite right, Jennifer. But it was only one council that was refusing to give the free personal care allowance to self-funders. The court upheld their right to do this, and the fear is that other councils will adopt the policy. I haven't heard anything else since.
     
  15. Mameeskye

    Mameeskye Registered User

    Aug 9, 2007
    1,669
    NZ
    One authority did! However for Mum's care there are actually two separate contracts for the care. One for the nrusing element from the LA and the other for Mum. So they do contract for her care!!!

    Mameeskye
     
  16. Louise.D

    Louise.D Registered User

    Apr 13, 2007
    68
    Essex
    Name and Shame

    The funding for Scotland seems quite complicated. I thought that you did not have to pay for personal care provided that it was arranged via the local authority? My father in law has AD caused by years of working in the petro-chemical industry and he wants to move to Scotland. Am I right in thinking that you do not have a 'choice' of home but have to live where the local authority have a contract? Could someone please clarify this for me.

    When I placed my mum in care I had to assume that she was going to live another 20 years as her mother did. Sadly, she only lived 8 months. I wanted to place her in an establishment so that if she were to run out of money she would be able to continue to live there funded by social services.

    The nursing home gave me all information relating to fees, it was open an honest how much social services paid per bed and it clearly advised me that she would not be evicted if she ran out of money.

    Mameeskye, you a right they have a captive market. I hated the expression used by the manager of mums last care home 'I have to sell beds'.

    At the end of a day certain care providers are making vast amounts of profit at the expense of elderly vulnerable people and in my mums case a certain care provider failed to provide basic care and my mum was physically harmed through neglect.

    Can we have a 'Name and Shame' section to this forum please?

    Louise
     
  17. Skye

    Skye Registered User

    Aug 29, 2006
    17,000
    SW Scotland
    Hi Louise

    If you are funded by the LA, they pay everything. I think you dohave choice, though if you choose a NH that charges more thanthe LA maximum, you'll have to pay the difference.It's only for respite that you have to use the homes where the LA contracts so many rooms.

    If you are self-funding, there seem to be several systems in operation. If you arrange it yourself, and have yourowncontract with the home, the LA is apparently within its rights to refuse to pay the free personal care element.

    Mameeskye has a system where the LA pays the personal care element directly to the home, and she pays the rest.

    In my case, the LA has the contract with the home, and they pay them their maximum. They then bill me for thisamount lessthe free personal care element. This is a good system, because I'm never going to have to pay more than the LA pay for funded clients.

    The down side is, none of us get attendance allowance,as free personal care cancels it out. But when John was at home, I got free personal care, and attendance allowance.


    Complicated? Oh yes!!!!!!
     
  18. Cliff

    Cliff Registered User

    Jun 29, 2007
    777
    North Wales
    Have been talking to a lady, who with her husband before he died, owned a care home.

    She is very concerned about the rise in costs but she points out the dramatic rise in regulations: ensuite rooms, room sizes etc etc etc. The home, in London, that looked after my uncle in the 90's was owned by the Guinness Trust - not a speculative group - went out of business as the changes required were too much - with all the misery that entailed for the residents.

    I am about to find out costs as I start to investigate Homes here in Wales.

    If this thread is still alive, I'll let you know.
     
  19. forgetmenot

    forgetmenot Registered User

    Jul 6, 2007
    25
    London
    nursing homes

    I moved my mother from Yorkshire to London to be nearer me. She is in a beautiful BUPA run home EMI nursing unit (before she was in residential) and pay less than £60 top up a week which I am pleased to pay because she is getting better quality care than she was. It all depends on the local authority even in london they differ.
     
  20. Brucie

    Brucie Registered User

    Jan 31, 2004
    12,413
    near London
    Hi Louise D

    just to answer the question you posed:
    quite simply, sorry but no.

    Please look at:
    http://www.alzheimers.org.uk/talkin...ocuments_info.php?categoryID=12&documentID=47

    We've all at one time or another thought that naming and shaming - or naming and praising - would be good, but it is not something that should be done on this forum, which is a resource provided by the Alzheimer's Society.

    There are legal issues involved, there are also many other issues that make naming and shaming unacceptable here.
     

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