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The cost of being self funding

Pete R

Registered User
Jul 26, 2014
2,036
Staffs
I'm aware roughly of the LA rate. How do you find out exactly what that is?
My LA has a rate of £410/week. £428 for EMI. The home were charging self funders £880.

My Mom has just moved out of the LA area where the local rate is £460 but the LA refuse to match that.:rolleyes:
 
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geum123

Registered User
May 20, 2009
4,604
My Local Authority area has a massive elderly population and the care homes can easily fill with self funders. The LA themselves are forced to find places out of county/in neighbouring counties at, as you'd imagine, great inconvenience to relatives. Our LA don't block book either. I'm aware roughly of the LA rate. How do you find out exactly what that is?
I just wrote and asked my LHB fr0d0.
 

katek

Registered User
Jan 19, 2015
191
I think if you dig hard enough you can find out what your LA pays although the shield of "commercially sensitive information" may come into play. One at least is quite open about it (see link below) but really it's not in their best interest to let you know either from the council's or the home's points of view.
K
https://www.sheffield.gov.uk/caresupport/adult/support-available/resnursing/paying.html
Interesting to read that link. I noted that when explaining their policy on the rate they are willing to fund, they say it is based on what they would expect a Care Home to charge. It's a shame self-funders can't just say that too!
 

Kon Dealer

Account Closed
Apr 25, 2015
18
I agree that the two-rate system is legal, but is is certainly questionable (morally at least) whether self-funders should be subsidising others as well as paying for themselves. Self-funders are essentially people who are ill - these places are not hotels!

Also, because this also happens in nursing homes (not just residential), a sizeable proportion of the patients are likely to be people who have been wrongly refused CHC, so shouldn't even be paying in the first place, by law!
I'm not at all convinced it is legal. Challenge them, refuse to pay a "top-up". Ask them on what basis are you liable to the higher rate.
 

Kon Dealer

Account Closed
Apr 25, 2015
18
I think if you dig hard enough you can find out what your LA pays although the shield of "commercially sensitive information" may come into play. One at least is quite open about it (see link below) but really it's not in their best interest to let you know either from the council's or the home's points of view.
K
https://www.sheffield.gov.uk/caresupport/adult/support-available/resnursing/paying.html
I just rang up local Social Services and they told me. I asked them to confirm by email and they did.
 

Kevinl

Registered User
Aug 24, 2013
4,764
Salford
I'm not at all convinced it is legal. Challenge them, refuse to pay a "top-up". Ask them on what basis are you liable to the higher rate.
If I go into Tesco and buy my shopping without a Tesco clubcard the I pay the price, if the next person has a clubcard they get vouchers at the end of the month discounting their shopping, likewise Airmiles or any loyalty scheme. The council are no doubt the biggest buyer of care so they get a better price, if you challenge that then all bigger buyers and loyalty schemes would be wrong or buy more get it cheaper offers.
Legally the care home could say that £XXX a week is the price but we give better customers a discount, what's wrong with that, everyone does it?
"Granny Farming" is big business and only likely to get bigger, many of these homes are part of a chain and the writing is on the wall, council rates are the bread and butter, self funders are the jam no top, It's not in the homes best interest or the council who are in effect getting a care rate subsidy to change the system.
I'm not saying that the councils see this invisible subsidy by the self funders to the council funded places as an income stream...well actually I am.
K
 

fr0d0

Registered User
Dec 23, 2009
186
Mid Wales
I emailed my social services and they told me that they couldn't tell me the LA fee because it was "commercially sensitive information". You bet! What do I do now?
 

jenniferpa

Registered User
Jun 27, 2006
39,448
I emailed my social services and they told me that they couldn't tell me the LA fee because it was "commercially sensitive information". You bet! What do I do now?
Ask care homes? They will know the standard LA rate. But do bear in mind that while the LA may have a base rate, this is (should be) entirely dependent on the needs of the person needing care. A compliant resident with basic care needs may well be charged less than a non-compliant resident who wanders, is resistant to personal care etc. etc. In other words the base rate is a starting point rather than a be all and end all.
 
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Pete R

Registered User
Jul 26, 2014
2,036
Staffs

fr0d0

Registered User
Dec 23, 2009
186
Mid Wales
My mum is paralysed and cannot communicate. She seems to be permanently left alone in her bed staring at a wall.
 

Spamar

Registered User
Oct 5, 2013
7,478
Suffolk
Something I came across yesterday, and I would appreciate any comments.
I booked a fortnights respite for my OH. Wednesday to Wednesday. Phoned on Tuesday to say I had been ill and I wanted to extend it another week. Went in to pay the following day, that's a funny sum of money I thought. It turns out that a week is Wednesday to Tuesday! So, five days, six nights and two part days. And you pay on a daily rate. Just remember that when you book your next holiday!

It's a good money making scheme (scam?) anyway. And, as some of you may have read (in 'so bizarre'), it all went pear shaped yesterday!
 
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Pete R

Registered User
Jul 26, 2014
2,036
Staffs
Can they use the same excuse on the freedom of information request?
Always a chance yes but you will be sending the FOI request to another department, one that deals with these requests.

Just google FOI with the name of the local authority you are dealing with and it should give you details of where and how to send your request.:)
 

katek

Registered User
Jan 19, 2015
191
Ask care homes? They will know the standard LA rate. But do bear in mind that while the LA may have a base rate, this is (should be) entirely dependent on the needs of the person needing care. A compliant resident with basic care needs may well be charged less than a non-compliant resident who wanders, is resistant to personal care etc. etc. In other words the base rate is a starting point rather than a be all and end all.
Yes, and the commercial rate will also be variable according to the patient's needs.

This difference in price according to needs is what one might expect e.g. a self-funder with relatively low needs paying less than a self-funder with higher needs, and a similar variation within the LA funded patients. However, the difference between the self-funders' average rate and the LA average rate is much bigger, so self-funders in general really bear the brunt of this. Although CHs justify it on a commercial basis (block-booking/customer loyalty and all that), the fact remains that self-funders are paying both because of their own illness and also subsidising others. Most find that unacceptable but have no choice other than to accept it.
 

fr0d0

Registered User
Dec 23, 2009
186
Mid Wales
Always a chance yes but you will be sending the FOI request to another department, one that deals with these requests.

Just google FOI with the name of the local authority you are dealing with and it should give you details of where and how to send your request.:)
Thanks Pete I'll be doing that
 

Pete R

Registered User
Jul 26, 2014
2,036
Staffs
Thanks Pete I'll be doing that
I have just sent an FOI to my local authority for something else. Initially they directed me to a section of the web that publishes previous request just to check the same question hadn't been asked before.

My question had not but I did come across this request which would be similar to yours so if you haven't already asked it may help with the wording and just to show that the information should not be restricted.:)
 

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katek

Registered User
Jan 19, 2015
191
I have just sent an FOI to my local authority for something else. Initially they directed me to a section of the web that publishes previous request just to check the same question hadn't been asked before.

My question had not but I did come across this request which would be similar to yours so if you haven't already asked it may help with the wording and just to show that the information should not be restricted.:)

Interesting to see these figures and the range of the different rates. Not only are they obviously much lower than what a self-funder would pay (less than half in fact), but there is hardly any variation in the rates according to need. Nursing (whether dementia or non-dementia) is only £10 a week more than the respective non-nursing rate - just over one pound a day! What would that buy? A few minutes care at the most !!! And even the dementia rate plus the nursing rate comes to the princely sum of exactly four pounds a day more than the standard rate, so wouldn't go that much further! The costs of food, utilities, etc will not vary between different levels of need, so it just goes to show just how little of the total fees goes on the actual care itself.
 
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Avenger

Registered User
Oct 25, 2012
10
All private care homes should be nationalized. Nobody should be allowed to make a profit out of a service people seek when they have no choice. Going old and infirm is not a choice.
 

missmarple

Registered User
Jan 14, 2013
204
Many posters seem to believe that "it's tough, but it ain;t going to change"
Once upon a time no one would have believed that health care could be free for all at the point of delivery. Then we got the NHS...So being ill did not have to mean financial destitution.
Maybe something just as radical is called for here. Maybe not free care homes for all, but care homes that are subsidised by the tax payer and not for profit.
For what it's worth, my grandfather went into a home in France (he was French). it was run by his union , and as care homes go it was a good one. The fees were about a third of what they'd have been here.
 

katek

Registered User
Jan 19, 2015
191
Many posters seem to believe that "it's tough, but it ain;t going to change"
Once upon a time no one would have believed that health care could be free for all at the point of delivery. Then we got the NHS...So being ill did not have to mean financial destitution.
Maybe something just as radical is called for here. Maybe not free care homes for all, but care homes that are subsidised by the tax payer and not for profit.
For what it's worth, my grandfather went into a home in France (he was French). it was run by his union , and as care homes go it was a good one. The fees were about a third of what they'd have been here.
Some good points, and interesting to hear about that care home in France. I had not heard of this idea although I know that for example ,rail travel in France is much cheaper than here as a result of more state subsidy. If that can be made more affordable, so can, and should, care!

I agree with you (and Avenger) that care homes should not be for profit, and you also make the point that that does not necessarily mean they should be entirely free, which I agree with too. I personally think it would be very reasonable to ask everyone (including those currently getting CHC) to pay for their food and a cost towards utilities etc, as they would have to anyway, if they were not ill. The money the NHS would save by not having to pay those 'living expenses' for people on CHC could better be used towards paying for more actual care for more people.

As you say, the idea that health care could be free was once unthinkable until the creation of the NHS. Since then, however, we have taken a backward step as far as long-term care is concerned, as that has been allowed to become re-privatised over the last few decades with the current result. Given the growing demand, it is very unlikely to be completely free again, but compromise is possible if we are prepared to think outside the box to find fair alternatives.
 
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