Tennants in Common with Dad Advice Please

Discussion in 'Legal and financial issues' started by Nellybell, Feb 5, 2016.

  1. Nellybell

    Nellybell Registered User

    Feb 5, 2016
    Hi all

    I am new to the forum so will try to give you a brief overview of my situation. My dad has Vascular Dementia, diagnosed May 14 although I think he was a good year into it by then. I co-own our house with him as tenants in common, he owns roughly 2 thirds and myself a third and it has legally been like this for 16 years so no "deprivation of assets" should come into the equation so to speak. His dementia has got rapidly worse in the last 6-8 months such that I gave up work in October 2015 to become his carer. 3 weeks ago he fell off his mobility scooter in the icy weather and broke his femur and has been in hospital since. We went through a very tough first week there, where he became delirious but he has since improved from that state thankfully although seems much more confused than before he went in - having some hallucinations but an awful lot of delusions as well. He was due to be moved to a residential care home today funded by the LA while they assess him, but this has been delayed for the time being as his wound from the operation has now become infected - they are hoping as they caught it early he may be able to go there on Monday (fingers crossed). The SW said the funding would likely be for 2-3weeks while they get the assessments done but would be a maximum of 6 weeks. My big worry is this - after this period ends he will be classed as a self funder as his income alone is over the £23250 threshold, though not by much. He only has a very small amount of savings - less than £5000 so that won't last long. If the recommendation is that if his needs would be best met in a care home setting how we fund this? Even though he has a very good income it is still not enough to cover dementia care near to where we live. We do not have a LPA or COP deputyship in place so would not be in a position to sell the property quickly to release any of his capital, never mind the fact that the house is also my family home. I have no issue in selling the house to get the right care for my dad - I would just have to find somewhere to rent for my family ( or live in a tent - lol) So I suppose my question is this? Would the LA offer a Deferred Payment Agreement in this instance, especially with no LPA or COP in place and me as a joint tennant in common? If they would then this would give me the time to get the COP in place - my brother would be his deputy as I understand that I cannot be the deputy as I co-own the propoerty with my Dad. I hope this all makes sense. PS - neither myself or my brother have the money to be able to top his care fees up ourselves.

    Thanks for any advice you might have.
  2. jenniferpa

    jenniferpa Volunteer Moderator

    Jun 27, 2006
    #2 jenniferpa, Feb 5, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2016
    OK - whether you are a self-funder or not is based entirely on your savings and assets, not your income. So your father is not a self-funder based on his income. However it is true that if you are funded by the LA then you do need to contribute your pensions to offset the LA contribution (less the Personal Expense Allowance). To get your head around this, lets say the LA contribute £500 per week for the care home and your father receives £24,000 a year in pensions. He would be expected to contribute roughly £438 a week to offset that payment. Do however bear in mind that if he receives Attendance Allowance that stops when he is LA funded.

    Now the house. Will that make him self-funding? Well it's no longer as easy to make a blanket statement about that. It used to be "what's the value of 2/3rd of a house"? The answer being not much. Now it isn't so clear. I don't suppose you are over 60 or disabled? That makes a difference as to whether the house is disregarded. But looking at worse case, and the house isn't disregarded, then you do have a few options. As a non-disregarded property the LA must offer a deferred payment agreement. Further, with his liquid savings as low as they are, he is entitled to a 12 week property disregard (where it is as if the property doesn't exist).

    As to the time constraints: It's very common for LA's (and in fact care homes) to have to deal with situations where assets aren't easily accessed. Please do not worry about this. You should (or rather your brother should) apply to be your father's deputy but don't be too concerned about the accruing shortfall: it's fairly common.

    Edit: Oh and a warm welcome to Talking Point. :)
  3. cragmaid

    cragmaid Registered User

    Oct 18, 2010
    North East England
    Hi, short and sweet....get the LPAs applied for asap.....you can fill them in and get a friend of his to witness them, you don't have to have a solicitor involved, but having them in place will make the legal side of things a bit easier.
    PS is the split documented in the House docs as 60/40 is is that a family acceptance of the figures. Normally I would have thought that T I C meant 50/50 if there are only two parties.
  4. fizzie

    fizzie Registered User

    Jul 20, 2011
    just google do it yourself power of attorney and the government website will come up with the forms etc it costs £110 for each one and it's very easy to do
  5. Nellybell

    Nellybell Registered User

    Feb 5, 2016
    Thanks for all the advice guys, especially on the LPA. I had assumed it was too late now to get that but maybe not if we act very quickly before social services get too involved. To be honest I do think dad would understand the general gist of it if we explained it to him, just not sure how long he could retain the information for.

    Jennifer, thank you so much for putting my mind at ease. I have obviously not read the right information on funding. To be honest I have looked at that many fact sheets and websites but to my eyes none of them seemed to fully explain what made up the threshold. I was aware with the new care act that the issue of the property was not clear cut and I suppose I will just have to see what the LA will say about it and then take it from there.

    One more question now on funding. If they say after his assessment he can come home with some sort of care package instead of a care home how do they work out if he is a self founder? I do know the property would be disregarded in this case but is the threshold worked out on just savings and any other assets or do they add his income into it as well?
  6. Nellybell

    Nellybell Registered User

    Feb 5, 2016

    Yes the split is all legally documented with the title deeds (I have forgotten what the legal term for the document is, trust deed I think) which is registered with the land registry. The only bit I think the LA won't like is it was redone last year, but only to take my ex husbands name off the deeds completely. The actual % split has not changed in 16 years for my father and this would all be traceable back to prove it if necessary. I won't bore you with the reasons for the weird split in ownership but all the family were and still are happy about it.
  7. jenniferpa

    jenniferpa Volunteer Moderator

    Jun 27, 2006
  8. Pete R

    Pete R Registered User

    Jul 26, 2014
    A DPA requires all owners of the property to agree, there is quite a "legal" document to sign so if your Dad does not have capacity or you do not have PoA then it cannot happen. However the LA may well agree to pay whilst you sort everything out. My LA have been paying now for over 6 months without all the documentation completed.

    Being joint tenants should not present a problem. The LA will value the house, take off 10% and £14,250 and agree with you how much your Dad's share is worth and then lend you a weekly/monthly amount that they think is sustainable for the duration.

    Bear in mind that a disregarded property cannot have a DPA (there are some exceptions) so if a top up on any Care Home fees are needed then having a DPA is sometimes the only way to pay for it. The LA can also increase the amount of your Dad's personal allowance to help pay any maintenance/insurance costs. This too has to paid back on death but also remember you are not necessarily forced to sell and the debt can be paid back from any means if you can find a way of doing so.

    Get both LPA's done as soon as possible. Your Dad only has to understand at the time of signing and does not have to retain the information. As long as all the family are in agreement it should all go through quite smoothly.

    Good Luck.:)
  9. Saffie

    Saffie Registered User

    Mar 26, 2011
    Near Southampton
    I'm not sure why you say being one part of a tenant in common agreement prevents you from applying for either LPA or Deputyship. It would mean that you would have to appoint a Trustee to act for your father in the case of the house sale should it come to this but shouldn't make any other difference.
    Many husbands and wives hold LPA or Deputyship for their spouses as well as being a tenant in common or joint owners of property. I did myself and also sold a jointly owned holiday property for which I had to appoint a trustee to represent my husband but that was all.
  10. sue38

    sue38 Registered User

    Mar 6, 2007
    Wigan, Lancs
    Being a joint owner of the property (joint tenants or tenants in common) doesn't prevent you from becoming an attorney under an LPA or a deputy, but it will require the appointment of a second trustee to sell the property. If Nellybell's brother is appointed deputy or attorney then he and Nellybell can sell the property without a second application to appoint a trustee.
  11. Beate

    Beate Registered User

    May 21, 2014
    The LPA forms can be very easily filled in online: https://www.gov.uk/power-of-attorney/make-lasting-power
    You can save what you've done and go back to it anytime. Please do it now and please do both financial and health. It'll be the best £220 you've ever spent - in fact you can get that money back from the donor. You need to figure out how many attorneys and replacement attorneys you want and how they should act. You need to find a certificate provider (best choose a friend or neighbour) who has known dad for a while and who certifies he knows what he's signing. You need to find a witness and figure out the people to be notified. If you're uncertain about filling it in yourself, go to the CAB, Age UK or the Carers Centre for help. A solicitor will charge you hundreds just to input your own information so try to avoid them! Once you've input all this, get it signed by everyone involved and send it off - it might take a few months to come back registered.
  12. Saffie

    Saffie Registered User

    Mar 26, 2011
    Near Southampton
    #12 Saffie, Feb 6, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2016
    Of course, that I think is what I said in my post. Apologies if it didn't read that way.
    I mentioned it simply because Nellybell said
    "my brother would be his deputy as I understand that I cannot be the deputy as I co-own the propoerty with my father" my bolding - and upon which which no subsequent poster had commented.

    I just wanted to let her know that she could still be a deputy should she want to be.
  13. canary

    canary Registered User

    Feb 25, 2014
    South coast
    My bolding

    No-one seems to have picked this up, so I will add my two penn'eth.
    It doesnt matter if he forgets afterwards, what is important is that he understands at the time of signing. So get in fast and it should be OK. If you do it DIY then you can pick your time - just make sure you have a witness who has known him for a while - I think its 2 years - to sign that he does understand .
  14. Nellybell

    Nellybell Registered User

    Feb 5, 2016
    Again, thanks for all the advice - I really appreciate it, so much more useful than what I have found on other sites :)

    Saffie and Sue - with regard to me being a deputy under COP I think I have mis-understood it the first time. I was looking at the section on selling a property and it says that a co-owner cannot sell a property they jointly own. I think I just retained that bit of information and got it into my head that I couldn't be a deputy fullstop, so thank you very much for putting me right on that.

    I have had a look at the forms for the LPA and I am surprised by how easy it appears to be to do it. I am going to see my brother this weekend and discuss with him, I am pretty sure he will want us to do it and try and get it done this week. As you all say it will save a whole load of headaches/hassle and money if we can get it done.

    I now feel that I can actually do something useful for my dad whereas the last 3 weeks I have felt fairly helpless.

    Thank you all :)

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