should I leave them to it?

[herdaughter]

Newbie here. My mum's the one with dementia. My father's still alive, he and my mum have always, always deeply loved each other. Problem is, he's a very... tempestuous person. All of us kids live far, far away, and none of my 3 brothers and sisters will visit them unless I'm there too. (I'm on a different continent, with small children, but have been going back every two months.) Our father used to beat us up when we were at home, and my mother never stopped him. No major broken bones or torture, more outbursts of uncontrolled rage, but at the worst, cracked some of my ribs when I was 8, broke one of my brother's fingers, broke a lot of furniture chasing us. But never hit my mother in those days.

Once she had dementia, he started hitting her. Not often, and not hard, more like a single slap from time to time, but he couldn't seem to keep his temper with her confusion, and I know these things can escalate potentially. I started talking to our local social services -- then I shipped her to hospital with what turned out to be an unrelated but life-threatening illness -- and one of the nurses saw my father slap her, so the police got involved and my mother was sectioned to prevent him taking her home.

Once all the dust had settled, I had managed to get my mother into quite a good nursing home where she seemed happy enough, except when she noticed my father wasn't there, and would wander around grieving and asking for him like an abandoned child. And he was withering away with sadness, not eating, drinking too much. Then my father got permission to take her home for occasional visits, despite my conversations with the head nurse... and next thing you know she's practically living at home again, and I fear he will be hitting her occasionally, though I'm not there.

But I know she'd rather be with him, even if he smacks her, than in the nursing home. And I assume from her unconcern when we were small that she has no real problem with his temper. (Or is that just belated resentment at her, bubbling up in me?) When I'm there, I can see how happy she is to be back home. I haven't actually seen him hit her recently. But I can't be there all the time.

I guess the question is: what do I do now? It was so hard to arrange that nursing home. There's only so much I can control from here. And, maybe ridiculous, but I still feel treacherous talking to people outside the family about this, even the nurse at the nursing home. Do I leave the two of them to drive one another mad, since that's what they want and they are all grown up?

 

[Slugsta]

Hi hd and welcome to TP

What a terrible situation to be in! It must be so hard to witness your parent's distress at being separated I wonder if there is also a part of you that feels that your mother did not protect you from your father, so why should you save her from him? It would be totally natural to feel this and would not make you a bad person!

The only point I would make is that, to all intents and purposes, your mother is not an adult anymore . . .

 

[notsogooddtr]

But she an adult when herdaughter and her siblings were children.I think her parents are very fortunate that she still cares about them.My advice would be to alert the authorities and then get on with your life.You owe them nothing.They abused you as a child for God's sake.

 

[jugglingmum]

Your mother had a choice to do something or nothing when you were children, she didn't make the choice to protect you, either because it meant she wasn't in the firing line (at that age you don't know what happened when you were asleep/as school) or because she didn't care. I suspect that it meant she wasn't in the firing line and so it protected her.

I would alert every authority you can think of, at some stage given he happily slapped her in hospital, it will happen again, he can't control his temper. This is too big for you to deal with on your own.

Any treachery you feel is the same reason much domestic abuse and similar is hidden, and you shouldn't.

 

[Shedrech]

hello herdaughter
welcome to TP, which is a safe place to write about anything that is bothering you - and clearly your parents' situation is a grave concern to you

to me, your username says a great deal - whatever your mum's failings you are her daughter and that clearly means a lot to you - from your post I'd say she and the family have a great deal of respect for you as the one who has stepped in and acted in very difficult circumstances

I'm sorry your mum seemed to do little about your father's aggression - it's unlikely that she is 'happy' with it, sadly she has been acclimatised to it over the years and it's become her 'normal' - this isn't at all unusual in abusive relationships - she's also used to him taking control, which is what he is doing again; it's usual to her, so she feels 'safe' with him taking the lead and uncomfortable when she is having to be without him - so it's not surprising that she 'wants' to be with him; and it's not surprising that he wants her with him, as he has come to depend on her dependence - he is, though, making his own choices, and if he chooses to wither away and drink, that's up to him - to me, he has no right to take your mother down with him
their relationship and situation isn't going to be better than it was before; your mother's dementia will progress and your father will not be able to deal with it - so I believe you are right to be very concerned
in many ways she came to have no choice in her situation - with dementia she has absolutely no chance of making an adult choice, she is no longer 'grown up', and her husband's choices for her are a cause for concern, not in her best interests
you found the strength before to break out of your father's conditioning, and I applaud you for that - he is now relying on his family not questioning his actions - can you find it in you to help out again - you will have the backing of the nursing home staff, her medics, Social Services and the police - speaking to them and asking for support is not being a traitor, it's being the grown up in challenging circumstances - your mum can't thank you for supporting her - you style yourself 'her daughter' so I'm taking that as a sign that actually you want to help her, you're just not sure how - go speak to the manager at the home to share your worries and get some back-up
very best wishes

 

[Beate]

This is no place to play a blame game. No one has any idea how difficult it is to protect your children from domestic violence until they've been in that situation.

Bullies attack weak people because they are cowards themselves. These can be children or vulnerable adults. Your Mum is the latter now. She has a right to be safe so please alert the authorities.

 

[Linbrusco]

My father is/was a controlling, quick to anger, and verbally/mentally abusive husband to my mother. Not all the time, he would go through stages, but enough to cause her major unhappiness... but on the other hand Mum would defend Dad to the hilt if anyone said anything negative about him. However Mum did say to me once, that if she knew what Dad would have been like when she married him, she would not have gotten married, and once us kids were born, then that was it. She knew she would never be able to leave him.

There was only one incident that I know of when he slapped my mother, this was pre dementia, I didn't witness it, but witnessed many times little shoves and pushes over the years. Thankfully Mum could stick up for herself in other ways.

It wasn't until Mums health declined since 2011, and her Alz in 2013, that I had to learn to stick up for my Mum, and took it upon myself to tell dad off for his behaviour.
Even right up to when Mum went into care in July, Dads frustration and anger at Mum was unbelievable.

Mum went into care in July, and has settled in well. She either asks for "Dad" or "Dave" her husbnad in her wedding photo. She's not distressed at being parted.... but what does make me when she sees "Dad" she recognises him as being familiar and giggles and laughs, and tries to kiss him, and askes him if he misses her

Dad puts on a big act in front if the care staff, who think he's the best husband ever.

Makes me sick.. if only they knew.

I am Mums EPOA, its my job to keep her safe. I have no guilt or regrets at Mum going into care. She is finally "free" of my father.
My one sadness is that it was Alzhiemers that forced her hand into a secure dementia unit, rather than a rest home, where she could enjoy her days with her memory intact.

Your Mum might not have done the best for you as a child, but I feel given your Mums illness you have to do best by her as it progresses, rather than give your Dad the satisfaction of having his wife home and back to his old ways.
Your Mum would settle at the CH given time.

 

[notsogooddtr]

I do have experience,both personally and professionally.It is never easy to walk away but it can be done.Adults have a choice,often the choices are painful and traumatic.Children have none and it is a parent's responsibility to protect them.

 

[Beate]

And the same can be said for Mum. It is now the state's responsibility to protect her as she has become a vulnerable adult. She deserves to be safe, no matter what. I don't think it's helpful at all to try to hold her to account now over the past.

 

[notsogooddtr]

The state's responsibility certainly.People are held to account for wrongs they have committed in the past.These children had broken bones,if a stranger had done this would we be so willing to forgive?

 

[Beate]

Well, you can't hold someone who has dementia responsible for the past now. That time has gone. Plus, she was a victim too, as she is a victim now. The Mum is vulnerable and needs protecting, and that should be that.

 

[Lawson58]

This situation is only going to get worse as your mother's condition deteriorates and your father becomes more frustrated.

I understand that your mother gets distressed when she is away from your father but you know what he is like and in my opinion that means that you cannot escape your responsibility. How would you feel if your father inflicts a really serious injury on your mother? I don't believe you have too many options open to you but leaving her to your father's abuse and violence isn't one of them.

When you were kids, domestic violence was something to keep hidden and your mum apparently didn't have the strength to protect you and his control of her is an indicator of a certain level of abuse. And even though you think you know everything that went on in their marriage, really you don't so perhaps you could try to be less judgemental and a little more forgiving of your mum. She needs your help.

 

[notsogooddtr]

This situation is only going to get worse as your mother's condition deteriorates and your father becomes more frustrated.

I understand that your mother gets distressed when she is away from your father but you know what he is like and in my opinion that means that you cannot escape your responsibility. How would you feel if your father inflicts a really serious injury on your mother? I don't believe you have too many options open to you but leaving her to your father's abuse and violence isn't one of them.

When you were kids, domestic violence was something to keep hidden and your mum apparently didn't have the strength to protect you and his control of her is an indicator of a certain level of abuse. And even though you think you know everything that went on in their marriage, really you don't so perhaps you could try to be less judgemental and a little more forgiving of your mum. She needs your help.

I don't think herdaughter is being judgmental,she lives abroad,has a family and there are limits to what she can do to help.I suggested she alerts the authorities,in view of the practicalities I'm not sure how much else she can do.She may well not want to put herself in the firing line of her father's temper having been on the receiving end as a child.The effects of abuse and the fear it engenders stay with a person for a lifetime.

 

[theunknown]

Hello 'herdaughter'. I do feel for you with all the conflicting emotions, plus the fact that you live far away from your mum. From your post it seems that you want to do the best for your mum, without really knowing how to go about it. If your mum seems happier with your dad it must be difficult to separate that from his abuse of her. But, as others have said, your mum is now a vulnerable adult (perhaps the equivalent of a child). What would you have wanted to happen in that situation; when your father was hurting you? There's no shame in talking to someone about being physically and mentally hurt by a family member, but it is very, very difficult.

It doesn't sound as if your mum is safe with your dad, and she needs others to help her out of that situation.

 

[herdaughter]

continuing the discussion

Hi, all, I much appreciate your thoughts, so keep them coming. One thing I feel I should clarify is that no, I don’t blame my mother now, I love her to bits. And call me crazy but I love my father too and I know they both love me – one of the bright spots in all this has been drawing closer. But because I love my father too, I don’t want him to do something he would regret when he cooled down. It is very stressful looking after my mother but he rejects all help except mine; seems to feel that loving her means he HAS to do it all. She is unsteady on her feet, and even a small smack could easily make her fall.

Part of what’s confusing me is that it seems to me I know two certain things about what my mother would have wanted in this situation back when she was still fully herself. One, that she never wanted to be in a care home. She was always very, very clear about that in so many words. Two, deduced from her behaviour if not words, that no matter how rough my father got, she wanted to be with him anyway. I feel like just because she can no longer truly reason this out is no excuse for ignoring her previously-demonstrated wishes altogether.

And yet, I don’t quite trust my own judgement. I have heard terms bandied about like “Stockholm syndrome” and “learned helplessness.” I remember that when I was actually living at home, I didn’t feel my mother’s decision to stay was the right one. Yet now I find myself acting as though she had been right, and that it was better to be with him, warts and all. After all, I can’t bring myself to refuse to see them, as my siblings have, so am I not in some way making the same decision my mother made?

There must be some middle way. I’m not trying to keep my father from seeing my mother; I arranged with the care home that he is allowed to go there whenever he likes, including eating all meals with her. And he could take her out sometimes, just not all the time. But to ensure this happens I am going to have to have some very explicit conversations with the care home nurses, and I already feel like a traitor to my parents for even thinking of it. Plus I'm exhausted at the thought of re-opening it all yet again...

 

[herdaughter]

and yes...

I don't think herdaughter is being judgmental,she lives abroad,has a family and there are limits to what she can do to help.I suggested she alerts the authorities,in view of the practicalities I'm not sure how much else she can do.She may well not want to put herself in the firing line of her father's temper having been on the receiving end as a child.The effects of abuse and the fear it engenders stay with a person for a lifetime.

And maybe this nails it a bit, too. I am not really afraid of my father hitting me any more, because I can just leave. But his rages still terrify me, even in my late 40s! (How is it that my mother wasn't frightened? What's wrong with me?) And I feel like, having finally managed to draw together after all these years, I don't want to lose that sense of closeness to him again. Plus he probably could block me from seeing my mother -- though I don't think he would go that far. The truth is our relationship would never recover if he knew all the things I've already done behind his back, like contacting social services and some of their old friends.

 

[Shedrech]

hi herdaughter
I admire the way you are supporting both your parents in challenging circumstances

seems to me you have worked hard to find the middle way you mention ie have your mum live in the care home where she is looked after 24 hours a day, so you know she is safe and as comfortable as she can be - AND have your dad visit her whenever he wishes (knowing the visits will be monitored)

sadly, your dad is the one moving the boundaries - understandably, he wants things as they were, when they were on his terms; he's not recognising that for his wife there has been a major shift in her NEEDS

I emphasise NEEDS deliberately as it is your mum's care needs that now outweigh other considerations, including what both may now want and may have wanted - the responsibility of all adults around your mother is to act in her best health and welfare interests

so, I suggest, anyone's best interests are not being where there is aggression or the threat of aggression - you would not allow your child to be in this position as you make the decisions for a child; and you do not allow yourself, as you have said that you know you can walk away from any violence and do so; your mum is no longer able to make an informed choice, like a child

I doubt many would actively say they are looking forward to living in a care home - sadly, for some of us it becomes necessary
your mum's behaviour in staying with your father doesn't evidence that she made a free choice to stay - she was surrounded by circumstances which made it very difficult for her to leave - in my own family a woman has said she dared not leave as she was more afraid of what her husband would do to her and the children if she did (I can 'understand' this on one level but just cannot comprehend how that can seem right) - however this may give a way to explain your mum's apparent lack of fear; she will have been frightened but showing that to him and you might have sparked off a stronger reaction; she will have learned how to 'cope' with the rages, even accept them as 'normal'

I think you are wise to talk to the manager of the home, then let the manager speak to the nurses/staff so that any instructions come from that authority and they won't ever have the chance to let slip 'oh your daughter says ...' - make sure the manager knows that too - also talk with Social Services, her GP and anyone else involved, as you need back-up
you said in your first post

Then my father got permission to take her home for occasional visits,

so who initially said your mum was to stay in the home and not go out? - maybe what you really need is an authority you can blame for your mum not being able any more to leave the home, or only eg once a week, so that you can all say 'mum's condition has deteriorated and she hasn't to go out any more, on eg GP's orders' (you said there was a life threatening reason for the hospital stay)

you've done well by your mum - you are no traitor to either parent; you are a caring daughter with a responsibility none of us want thrust upon us

sorry to have gone on - you did say keep it coming

best wishes

 

[eddiesgirl]

Hello, herdaughter.

A question only: if all this were happening in the life of a friend of yours, what would your advice to her be?

 

[Antiquenotold]

Hello, you don't say how old your parents are or what your father's state of health is. Is he at a stage where he might consider supported care himself, in which case is there a possibility of them living together in a care home? I appreciate what many have said about your Father's past behaviour, but I can't help feeling that at this stage your Mum's needs have to come before any kind of "punishment" for either of them. If she is happier when he is around then I would argue he needs to be around, but obviously it has to be in a safe way. It sounds as if you've done all the right things and raised all the concerns with the right people up to a point, but I really feel the care home manager has to know everything so that he/she can support all of you in the best way. Stay strong, you're doing absolutely the best you can by everyone