1. Natashalou

    Natashalou Registered User

    Mar 22, 2007
    My mother is fully self funding and her home was sold almost a year ago to pay her care home fees which started off last March at £800 per week and have now risen to £856.
    Her income from state pension, private pension in her own right and half of my deceased fathers plus AA and the contribution from the PCT which is £87 ppw although I understand it ought to be £101 actually adds up to about 40% and the rest os paid from her assetts. Of course these are dwindling with every passing month especially as a fair bit goes on extras like hairdressing too.
    We havent received any help from SS but the home management have been good and have drawn up a care plan which is regularly reviewed.
    Having looked into it very carefully with the help of a legal advisor as to whether there are any "loopholes" to protect her assetts, it was pretty clear in her circumstances the answer was no.
    If her money was "given away" it would have been considered (I guess rightfully) as deliberate deprivation, and if we had rented her bungalow out instead of selling it , a charge would have been put on it to claw back the money when it was eventually sold.
    I suppose its possible it would have risen in value enough to offset some of the fees but it certainly wouldnt have risen at £856 per week!
    My real fear is when the money does eventually run out she will be moved to a different and cheaper home where she may have to share a room, and additionally as all her income will then be taken leaving her just a small amount of pocket money, how will things like clothes, hairdoes and treats like sweets, drinks and outings be funded then?
  2. jenniferpa

    jenniferpa Volunteer Moderator

    Jun 27, 2006
    Margaret I checked in CRAG - an annuity is considered only as income, not capital. So say your mother depletes her capital and finally ends up being entitled to LA funding, the LA will take all her income (these annuity payments , plus any pensions (AA will stop at that point)) and leave her with whatever the personal expense allowance is at that time (£20.45 a week at the moment).
  3. noelphobic

    noelphobic Registered User

    Feb 24, 2006
    We are in that position pretty much Suzanne. My mum only went into care when my dad died, but it does mean that she is self funding because of the house. If my dad had left half of the house to his children then this situation could possibly have been avoided.

    If I had a partner then I would be looking at how best to make provision in my will for exactly this reason.
  4. Westie

    Westie Registered User

    Fully funded - it's a joke

    The whole funding issue is a complete nightmare. Trying to get accurate information from anyone seems to be impossible. I have been left to make my own investigations into this and even though Peter was placed in care nearly 2 weeks ago, the financial arrangements have still not been resolved.

    I thought our case was very clear cut and completed the pages of financial information requested for Social Services to make their decision. Savings under the £13,000 threshold, property in joint names where I and the children continue to live and monthly expenditure exceeding monthly income as Peter's salary had been reduced by 50%. Surely that meant that his care would be funded by Social Services? Answer - no way!

    Their calculations were simple. Take Peter's reduced income and half it again. Give half to me. From his half they 'allowed' him to pay half the monthly mortgage bill, then deducted the standard (£20.45) weekly allowance. The remainder was to be paid direct to the home as Peter's contribution towards his own care. That leaves me with 50% of his income from which I have to pay 100% of all the living costs for myself and my children - less half the mortgage. The sums just don't add up and they have chosen to ignore all the information I originally provided. I am now in arrears already with Peter's home as SS are witholding Peter's 'contribution'.

    I have refused to sign the contract with SS which includes these figures and am now putting together an appeal against their decision. They seem to have overlooked several key points which are detailed in CRAG - particularly ones pertaining to dependant children and maintaining a similar standard of life for spouses where the resident is the main income provider. I also don't think they should be witholding money from the care home.

    Where has my S Worker been throughout this? Nowhere. No phone calls and a recent planned meeting to discuss the situation was cancelled by her. She just repeats that I have to pay and I just repeat that I can't!! The home are stuck in the middle and I feel sorry for them - they were told that P was being fully funded by SS. I was also told that - albeit verbally - before he moved. I would never have agreed to the move if I knew it would involve me with a bill of nearly £400 a month which I cannot pay. I only received their decision about funding AFTER Peter had moved. He was even moved there without my prior knowledge.

    So even if you are not self funding, my experience is that there is no support or advice out there. I am going to have to fight all the way on this one, and I will, but I'm scared that Peter may be moved out in the meantime. Goodness knows where to though, as this home is the only one I actually liked and the only one willing to accept him.

    I am fortunate in that I used to work in the financial sector and I therefore didn't find the 101 pages of CRAG too intimidating. But leaving family members to wade through all of this at a very difficult time of their life is nothing short of scandalous.

    I'll get off my soap box now!

  5. Helena

    Helena Registered User

    May 24, 2006
    Mary Ann

    That is a totally disgraceful way to treat you and the children and as you say also illegal

    Have you involved your Local Councillor and your MP
  6. Clive

    Clive Registered User

    Nov 7, 2004
    Hi Mary Ann

    You are being treated in a shocking way.

    I agree with Helena

    This is something for your MP to advise you about.

    Though I have deep reservations about what MP’s do, I have always found that they can get matters looked at from the top down, which can often get past the obstructions placed in your way by those at the bottom of the decision making chain.

    MP’s are usually very “busy” so if you do want help I would suggest you ring for an appointment at once, (you can always cancel). Often they have a surgery in different places at different times on Fridays and Saturdays so it sometimes helps to say you can meet him at any surgery.

    Best wishes

  7. scatterbrain

    scatterbrain Registered User

    Jan 10, 2008
    private or NHS?

    I don't think there is one solution that is right for everyone - like so many things! I must admit, though, that when I arranged for my Mum to move to a private residential care home I was - and still am - perfectly happy about it. I visited loads of places, including two local NHS places, and the one she is in is the best by a very long way. Going private does give you more choice and more control (but not complete control as I am finding out by reading stuff on this Forum).
    I do understand that we are very lucky in that Mum had a house to sell so she is able to pay for the home easily. If Dad had still been alive it would have been a very different story, I suppose. I don't think the rules allow for the situations that arise in lots of families and they should do.
    I do feel, though, that we all have to live somewhere all our lives, and we have to support ourselves if we can. In this country we are privileged to have a support system for those who need help and it should apply throughout our lives. We should not, however, expect the country to support us if we don't need it! At the end of the day it's like they say: you can't take it with you.
    IF anyone reading this is now thinking "this person clearly does not understand the situation I am in" then you are right - and your situation can't be handled the same way as ours. Please believe that I do not wish to upset you and I am sorry if I have.
  8. Skye

    Skye Registered User

    Aug 29, 2006
    SW Scotland

    Not so scatterbrained!!!!!!!:)
  9. Cliff

    Cliff Registered User

    Jun 29, 2007
    North Wales
    #49 Cliff, Feb 22, 2008
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2008
    Absolutely true what you are saying but...........

    The more I dig and uncover, the more I feel angry about the unfair cut-off if you are self-funding.

    It extends into all sorts of benefits and help that are available to those who are not self-funding.

    A spouse should not have to sell their house to continue to fund the care for their husband/wife. When savings run out, should such a sale have to take place ?

    If your life style has been modest and you have built up savings why should you be barred from any form of help from Social Services.

    Maybe, I am being unfair to the SS and the next weeks as I search for respite care for Dee, will prove me wrong - I hope so.
  10. Skye

    Skye Registered User

    Aug 29, 2006
    SW Scotland
    That's a good point, Cliff. It's another example of emotional blackmail in the system.

    When the spouse's half of the savings has been used up, do we continue to pay out of our own half, so that our spouse does not have to move to a cheaper, fully-funded place?

    Of course we do, it's another example of non-choice. But it could leave us in very straitened circumstances.
  11. barbara h

    barbara h Registered User

    Feb 15, 2008
    county durham
    Hi everyone,
    I am shocked and dismayed to read your comments on this thread about not being entitled to help from a social worker if you are self funded.

    Mam went into a care home three weeks ago she had an assessment and we were told she didn't qualify for any help with the fees. We are awaiting a finincial assessment to be done but as she owns her own home and has some savings this won't change.

    The social worker has not contacted us at all since she was transfered to the home even when we left four messages in a week to ring us. We feel like we are on our own. Could this be because mam is self funding?

    Also when is the care plan supposed to be discussed as this has not been mentioned so far.

    Barbara h
  12. Grannie G

    Grannie G Volunteer Moderator

    Apr 3, 2006
    Does anyone know when these new regulations came about?

    My mother was self funding and in an EMI unit in a NH from 1996-2002. All through that period she had contact with her SW. When I was unhappy with the first home, it was her SW I complained to, and she arranged an impromptu inspection.

    My neighbour was in a CH until he died in 2002, and his SW was on call to me if I had any worries about him.
  13. 117katie

    117katie Guest

    I get the feeling, Sylvia, that there are Social Workers and there are Social Workers.

    Like Barbara, we had a Social Worker with a permanently-on-answering machine. The SW was permanently-off, though, and rarely returned those calls. We too turned to leaving messages morning, noon and night-time too. Phoned SW's boss then, and asked whether she had ever heard of a SW called XYZ, and whether this XYZ SW worked as part of their unit. Soon got a phone call back from SW!! But it didn't always work.

  14. jenniferpa

    jenniferpa Volunteer Moderator

    Jun 27, 2006
    #54 jenniferpa, Feb 23, 2008
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2008
    I think the "you're on your own if you're self-funded" thing has arisen not in any formalized way, but due to budget crunches. However, there does seem now to be a recognition that this isn't right - does not the new green paper specifically address this: that no matter where the funding is coming from everyone should be entitled to the same level of support (although not financial)?

    P.S. This makes interesting reading http://www.csci.org.uk/about_us/news/state_of_social_care_2007_ne-1.aspx
  15. bclark

    bclark Registered User

    Feb 15, 2008
    greenhithe kent
    #55 bclark, Feb 23, 2008
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2008
    a carers worth, how much?

    i recently read a very good book in which i reserved a copy at the library, i can send details if requested she made a very good point about how much we save the goverment.eg: the national carer organisations calculate that carers save the public purse in the region of £57billion a year. count how many hours a week you spend wearing each of your occasional hats.

    what does a carer cost.


    care asst. 11.00
    home help 6.00
    cleaner 5.50
    kitchen asst 6.00
    nanny/nursery nurse 7.50
    night sitter,nurse asst 6.75
    bookkeeper 10.00
    secretary 11.00
    chauffeur 11.50
    personal shopper 9.50

    these are approx houly rates. we wear our hats because they are our loved ones. perhaps we need a special department for unpaid carers. many more good topics see what you think bclark:)
  16. Helena

    Helena Registered User

    May 24, 2006
    Sorry but I am heartily sick and tired of all those who have saved and been prudent and struggled to buy a home have to see it ripped away to pay care home fees ........its illegal for starters but since anyone who has been a total spendthrift all their life gets everything paid for on the backs of those who saved its totally iniquitous
  17. Skye

    Skye Registered User

    Aug 29, 2006
    SW Scotland
    Our SW visits John (and me)in the home every three months for a review, and I can call him at any time -- though I haven't yet put this to the test.
  18. Cliff

    Cliff Registered User

    Jun 29, 2007
    North Wales
    Thank you Jennifer,

    That is a very interesting paper - I'll make time to read it and all the support papers.

    I can go along with that providing the financial apportioning is fair

    I've repeated the URL you gave in case anyone wants it:

  19. Clive

    Clive Registered User

    Nov 7, 2004
    Hi Scatterbrain

    I was interested to read your post.

    "In this country we are privileged to have a support system for those who need help and it should apply throughout our lives. We should not, however, expect the country to support us if we don't need it! At the end of the day it's like they say: you can't take it with you".

    I look at life from the opposite point… the Health Care provided from our taxes should not depend on how a person has previously lived their life. Those who accumulated savings by heating just one room and wearing thick jumpers, by having few holidays or by working long after 65, should not be disqualified from Care provided from taxation. They should have the same right to use their live time’s after tax income as a person who has used it on beer and cigarettes and holidays… even if this is via their will after they die.

    The logical conclusion to the current legislation is that more and more people will make use of equity release and complicated wills to avoid having their savings confiscated if they become ill. This will only benefit the legal profession.


    PS Scatterbrain: I was not upset by your post. We all need to be able to put forward our views whilst we are still able.
  20. BeverleyY

    BeverleyY Registered User

    Jan 29, 2008
    Ashford, Kent
    It makes me laugh - the government seem to think we can do it all 24/7 for the sum of £48.00/week..!

    I am still on a knifes edge of whether to quit my job and look after Dad full time. I will give up my salary of £550 a week, and replace it with £48 a week if I do that.

    Of course, doing that will mean my children suffer financially.

    If Dad went into a home, it would be £925 a week.. so, if he were allowed to just replace my salary, then he would still be better off by a country mile - but, technically, SS wouldn't like him doing that because they wouldn't be happy I was 'taking' his money.

    Bottom line is - they can pay strangers up to £4000 a month, but their loved ones deserve nothing!

    I brought Mum and Dad to live with me because I love them - not to gain financially. However, I just see in the long run, my kids will actually be penalised because of the choices I make.

    Social Services tell me that as my Dad's child, I am not financially responsible for him BUT... that only is really applicable if I want to put him in a home, which I am nowhere near ready to do. Therefore, until the time when I let go, if I decide to quit work instead of getting careers in, then it will actually cost me £28,500 a year in lost salary.

    Beverley x

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