1. Margaret W

    Margaret W Registered User

    Apr 28, 2007
    3,725
    North Derbyshire
    Many of you will know I have had lots of little problems with mum's care over the six months that she has been in a Care Home, and I have hoped they will all go away or be resolved, but they haven't. So last week I rang the Social Worker, "Mum's" social worker, and she came round on Thursday. She was very helpful. BUT

    I was stunned to find that as mum is self-funding she doesn't actually have any entitlement to support from a social worker. She is effectively "outside the state system" rather like a private patient in hospital. I was shocked.

    The Social Worker asked me about mum's Care Plan. What Care Plan, I asked (some of you will know I have queried this before). Apparently if you are funded by the Local Authority, the Social Worker draws up the Care Plan, but if you are self-funded, you draw up your own! Well, I am a real expert at drawing up Care Plans, aren't I?

    And if you are funded by the LA, they will review the Care Plan every six months, and arrange a meeting with the Home, themeselves and the relatives, to discuss it all. Not so if you are self-funded.

    I am just shocked and stunned that my mum is left entirely to her own devices because she is saving the government £460 a week or whatever figure the LA will pay, and is entitled to no advisory support from them. This is for a lady whose husband fought in WW2, his boat was torpedoed, he spent a week drifting on a raft, his mother was notified that her youngest son, aged 19, was missing presumed dead, and his widow can't get access to a social worker!

    I asked her what proportion of residents in a typical care home in the area were self-funding and was told her guess was about 10%. Is that right? Are 90% of people in care homes people who didn't own their own home? Or were clever enough not to sell it, and have rented it out instead? I think not.

    What am I doing wrong?

    I feel deserted by the system.

    Margaret
     
  2. Helena

    Helena Registered User

    May 24, 2006
    715
    Margaret

    I believe the % who are being fleeced by Self Funding is far far higher than 10%

    However any charge for long term care is ILLEGAL
    Under the 1946 National Health Act which has not been amended everyione is entitled to free care

    see www.nhs.info
     
  3. CraigC

    CraigC Registered User

    Mar 21, 2003
    6,630
    London
    Hi Margaret,

    I'm not sure your social worker is correct you know. Hopefully someone else will know the legal issues and post their experiences. Perhaps it depends on the local authority - but that is a guess.

    All I can say is that initially the social worker was helpful and did draw up a care plan - dad and mum are still both self funded by the way. They also reviewed it and helped find agencies for home help etc (OK the agencies turned out terrible but she meant well).

    So they did get a lot of help and I was under the impression that it was the social workers responsibility to help mum and dad, whether or not self funded. They also helped with the attendance allowance. In fact, on a couple of occasions when they got less helpful and we hit a crisis, I asked for help and then needed to threaten to excellate the issue - they never at any point said, your on you own being self funded. However, where it all went really wrong with the social services is when we were allocated a new social worker, she just wasn't bothered - we should have kicked up more of a fuss at the time but I just got on with it.

    My advice would be to wait for other responses on this thread and then contact the borough help line directly and clarify the position. Also perhaps you could say you would like to 'excellate the issue' if you do not get a decent response - worked for me first time around ;)

    Hope that makes sense
    Is you mum getting attendance allowance BTW?
    Craig
     
  4. connie

    connie Registered User

    Mar 7, 2004
    9,519
    Frinton-on-Sea
    Margaret, can understand your concerns.

    As it was our own decision tofor Lionel to go into care (self funding) I too got very little help from, in his case, his CPN. She also acted as his social worker.

    She visited him at the home, and then as it was in another county, transferred him and 'vanished'. I did query as to whether I was entitled to moral support, if nothing else from her, but was told, 'he is there, you will have to deal with their LA.

    I did his care plan with the home, and they have been more than accommodating and fair with us. He has had just two visits from the new CPN in 16 months, and has seen a consultant, all at my instigation.

    Sometimes I get tired of fighting all the red tape.

    Shining light in all this is the home we found. Without their care for Lionel, and support for me, I wonder what would happen.
    We will see when his monies run out.
     
  5. jenniferpa

    jenniferpa Volunteer Moderator

    Jun 27, 2006
    39,437
    Well I was told by 2 different LAs that no, if you're self funded you're on your own. Having said that though, a hospital stay DID result in input from a social worker. That was arranged by the hospital CPN who was supposed to see my mother when she was in hospital but who didn't get the referral until the day AFTER she had been discharged. She was actually, though (the CPN) the only helpful person I came across.

    That assessment was done under a programme called something like "one assessment" - I don't think that's "quite" right but there's a push to have the elderly assessed just once in the hope that there's more of a comprehensive overview of all of their problems.

    P.S. Both my parents served in the Navy during WW2!
     
  6. BeverleyY

    BeverleyY Registered User

    Jan 29, 2008
    716
    Ashford, Kent
    I am trying to sort day care three times a week for Dad. Have found one, and just fingers crossed he can pass their assessment. If he can't, then I am stuffed and seriously will need to hand my notice in. Nearly did that the other day until I stumbled across this day care in a residential home.

    Dad's care worker was busy ringing round trying to help me, but it dawned on her the other day that Dad will be self funding (for now). She then said, oh, well good luck, hope that works. Kind of got the impression I wasn't to ask for any other help until his savings hit £21,500 and some funding kicks in.

    Bloody system.

    Beverley
     
  7. Cliff

    Cliff Registered User

    Jun 29, 2007
    777
    North Wales
    #7 Cliff, Feb 9, 2008
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2008
    I have no experience of a care home yet, but was in desperate need of help before Christmas when I almost certainly was liable to go to London to deal with a family death.

    My Social worker refused to help in any way because I am self funding. She had given me a book of homes and she told me to look through that.

    Thanks to the Royal Marsden Hospital in London the family member hasn't died.

    My GP subsequently told me that if I had to leave Dee alone, the doctors would ensure she was cared for or hospitalised for a short period like this.

    I mean to write to the Soial Services about this but still feel so angry that I have put off the letter writing so far.

    Angry is an understatement.

    PS I can still remember my service number.
     
  8. Clive

    Clive Registered User

    Nov 7, 2004
    716
    Hi Margaret

    I, regrettable, stopped bothering with Social Services as they did not offer anything that mum would not have had to pay for. And I agree with you that there is little, if any support.

    I know you are having problems with the home and what I write below you probably know, but there might be just a bit that helps. (Don’t be offended if I’ve got it wrong).

    I am definitely not an expert on this subject but I am a little confused Margaret that you say that you don’t see your mum’s Care Plan. The EMI Residential Home that mum is in has a Care Plan / Risk Assessment for each resident which they update regularly. If they didn’t have a Plan how could they know what medicine, therapy, safety issues etc the resident has?

    You are paying for the Care so you should be able to see it. You can then comment on it. I am sure Margaret that you can tell if it’s right, especially if you ask for a copy to read at home. You don’t need a social worker!

    My understanding is that the Commission for Social Care Inspection (CSCI) inspect each Care Home. They check that the Home has a Care Plan for each resident and publish their finding.

    Mum’s Care Plan runs to 6 A4 pages. (To my eyes it is a bit amateurish but obviously does the job)

    The pages lists the concerns (risks)
    e.g. Jane could get out of bed in the night and…

    and the Objectives
    e.g. Jane to remain safe…

    and Actions required
    e.g. Pressure mats (sounds alarm in office) by the bed and door…

    and subsequent pages list other concerns like dementia, hygiene, activities etc.

    Maybe next time you give the manager a box of chocolates for the staff you ask for a copy of you mum’s Care Plan which should show the date when it was last updated… (or would my method of chatting up the boss not work in your mum’s home?)

    By the way, I do think Carer’s should arrange to see their MP at least once every six months to ask why their loved one is not looked after by the NHS and has to have “Private Health Care”.

    Best wishes

    Clive
     
  9. Margaret W

    Margaret W Registered User

    Apr 28, 2007
    3,725
    North Derbyshire
    Seems you are all in much the same boat (let's hope it isn't torpedoed like my dad's was!). Hey laugh, apparently the raft drifted (yes drifted) into Bombay, the occupants (6 of them) were given a Hero's welcome, checked over, given a bath, and then asked what they wanted to eat. Most said "Steak and Kidney pie" or similar, but my dad said "Ice cream, preferably a Knickerbocker Glory!".

    Well, I have emailed my MP, who has offered to respond within 10 working days, and judging from past responses from him will be telling me how wonderful the government is, and how lucky I am that we are not still in the dark ages.

    I have emailed my local Tory and Lib-Dem Candidates, and my local County Councillor, who has already replied to say he has no experience of what I am asking but will find out.

    We shall see.

    Margaret
     
  10. Clive

    Clive Registered User

    Nov 7, 2004
    716
    Hi Margaret

    Good to see that you are telling our leaders what you think.

    E-mailing is good and quick and cheap. It makes these people realise that there are voters who care for the elderly. I wish more people would do it. I personally believe going and looking these people in the eye and asking the same question is even better…especially if you can keep to just one topic. (I find that is difficult as there are so many things wrong with the way Carers and the elderly are treated.)


    You asked in your original post what proportion of people in Care Homes are self funded.

    There was a report from the Commission for Social Care Inspection in October 2007 called “A fair contract with Older People”.

    http://www.csci.org.uk/default.aspx?page=2205&key

    Apparently the report found that between a quarter and a third of Care Home places are wholly privately funded at an average cost of £30k per year.

    In 58% of Homes surveyed there was differential charging. i.e. Self funders paid more than Social Services for the same care.

    Also of interest to you would be that the report found that over half of self-funders had not had an assessment of their care needs to which they were entitled and so had no chance to discuss care options.

    Best wishes

    Clive
     
  11. BeverleyY

    BeverleyY Registered User

    Jan 29, 2008
    716
    Ashford, Kent
    My Dad's Care Manager just informed me that our local EMI is £925.00 a week for self funders :(:mad:

    This really is all beyond a joke.

    Beverley
     
  12. Grannie G

    Grannie G Volunteer Moderator

    Apr 3, 2006
    69,755
    Kent
    Beverley, please try to find out how much SS pay for those who are not self funders. That sounds like a rip off.
     
  13. BeverleyY

    BeverleyY Registered User

    Jan 29, 2008
    716
    Ashford, Kent
    I'll ask Dad's Care Manager, but it was her that told me self funders were £925.00.

    We are nowhere near the point (I hope) of needing full time care, as long as suitable day care can be found (looking at one tomorrow) for 3 days a week care for Dad when (if) I go back to work.

    I do know that the point will come where he will need full time care, and I am just appauled at the costs involved. I just can't believe it.

    Am in the middle place at the moment of finding inventive ways for Dad to spend his money!! Any ideas most welcome.

    Beverley
     
  14. Helena

    Helena Registered User

    May 24, 2006
    715
    The important thing to find out is what the SS are paying for the same places in an EMI home

    Generally self funders are being ripped off by fees 50 % higher than SS funded ...........all because this bunch have worked out they can rip off anyone who has been priudent or has a house

    ITS ILLEGAL for them to even charge for care homes

    see www.************
     
  15. Margarita

    Margarita Registered User

    Feb 17, 2006
    10,824
    london
    #15 Margarita, Feb 10, 2008
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2008


    yes Sylvia
    that what it cost for a nursing home in my area also , so that why Social services say my mother does not need a nursing home , when they done an assessment on her they say her needs can be meet at a residential care home , which cost around £ 450 / 400 a week.

    My mother will have to be on death door , before they pay out £900 a week for a nursing care home out of tax payer money .

    .


    They did it as a favor to me they told me:rolleyes: when once my mother went into a Nursing care home near me , because it was emergency respite and I could visit her every day , while I care for my brother who was living with me the time , till he got housing support .


    local authorities , pay the same money as all self funned people because they closed down all they own care home . They may get discount for hiring loads of beds from privet nursing care homes .

    its like getting blood out of sand , to get them to pay for my mother to go in that nursing care home now near me presently, what SS say in they assessment is the word of God, Not the doctors , because they think they God
     
  16. jenniferpa

    jenniferpa Volunteer Moderator

    Jun 27, 2006
    39,437
    I think, Maggie, that most LA do get a discount on the "sticker" price. I would imagine the only exceptions are for those people whose needs are so complex that they can only be cared for in homes that refuse to give that discount. Even in London and the home counties, many nursing homes still rely on social services clients to fill beds and if they want to do that, they have to give some level of discount. Which is not to say that I suspect that there are percentage wise, more homes in those areas that don't have social services clients. My nasty suspicious mind says that with the massive increases in property prices in those areas there are no shortage of clients who can afford to (and have to) pay full wack.
     
  17. Margarita

    Margarita Registered User

    Feb 17, 2006
    10,824
    london
    #17 Margarita, Feb 10, 2008
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2008


    LA / government rules are the nasty one not your mind , bet your suspicion is right!

    That must be also why , they build 2 massive state of the arts nursing care home in my area , both privet , both part funded by Social services . That where the discount come in for LA .

    what they not taking into consideration , that in this area that has became so up coming to live in . It was built on working class people, then they go on to buy they home . its OK does sound nice when property prices rises in your area , but not when that working class family have all Collateral in they property:rolleyes:
     
  18. jenniferpa

    jenniferpa Volunteer Moderator

    Jun 27, 2006
    39,437
    Yes indeed. I have a friend whose father worked for london transport (not high up or anything). They purchased a house in Chiswick shortly after the WWII and the darn thing's worth close to a £1,000,000 now. I mean that's mind boggling.
     
  19. CraigC

    CraigC Registered User

    Mar 21, 2003
    6,630
    London
    Hi All,

    In my experience self-funders are taken for a bit of ride in private homes when times get tough. There is way too much whispering when a self- funded resident's money runs out. They may find somewhere to 'accommodate' a resident whose savings run out, but you can never be sure - perhaps a room on the top floor.

    This doesn't seem to happen in more regulated homes and particulary in housing trusts or charitable homes. A good friend who works for housing associations once told me that he would never trust a private home that was not connected to a charity or HA or very regulated. At the time, I didn't really know what he meant. Older and wiser and two years down the line with both mum and dad in different homes I know exactly what he means. Regulations and red tape are good for the vunerable.

    This is my humble opinion, but some homes are clearly in it for the money. Others follow clear guidelines and have the residents interest at heart.

    Really, I'm not saying this has anything to do with the staff, and there are brilliant private care homes. But, it is the fundamental ethos of many private homes that concerns me. They are often taken over, given new names, become part of a big group like any business concern - that just doesn't always work for care and the elderly.

    What really concerns many of us is what happens when the money just run dry.

    I've asked both types of homes what happens when the money runs out - basically will we need to move dad or mum. So far, only a clear answer from dad's home - run by a housing trust.

    Lastly, April is not far away. I know that the private home will slap on a massive monthly rise - usual reasons (energy bills, staff salaries, paperwork and other cost), whereas the the non-private home will be reasonable and in line with inflation.

    Sorry, don't mean to moan, just throwing in my 2 cents worth.

    Kind Regards
    Craig
     
  20. BeverleyY

    BeverleyY Registered User

    Jan 29, 2008
    716
    Ashford, Kent
    Oh Craig, your post made me feel physically sick. My heart literally fell into my stomach. The realisation that if my Dad needs to go into a home, that his room may be down graded etc. as soon as he stops self funding.

    You are right, and I bet it goes on all the time.

    Whilst I couldn't (shouldn't) tar everyone with the same brush, I have always had an unease about care + money whether that is childcare or care of the elderly. Some of them are purely in it for the cash, end of story.

    I once worked for a bank, and my immediate team leader was the ex owner of a residential home.

    I used to absolutely cringe hearing him refer to the stories of when he run the home and what they used to do to the old people to get them to shut up/go to sleep.

    Listening to his tales made me determined I would never see my parents or a loved one in an establishment where they cared because they were paid to do so. Sadly, back then, I never knew my Dad would develop Dementia - I now obviously face the prospect that one day I may not be able to cope, and I will have to give in and let my Dad go to one of 'those' places.

    I feel really sad now.

    Beverley
     

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