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Saving assets from care fees, grrrr...

Discussion in 'Legal and financial issues' started by Witzend, Jan 28, 2017.

  1. Witzend

    Witzend Registered User

    Aug 29, 2007
    3,986
    SW London
    In today's paper, money section, yet another person wanting to know how to prevent a parent's house being sold to fund their care, since 'she had always intended to leave it to us'.
    I do wonder what planet such people are on.
    Glad to say the reply was pretty blunt - basically, you can't.
     
  2. Saffie

    Saffie Registered User

    Mar 26, 2011
    22,310
    Female
    Near Southampton
    I'm having to sit on my hands here!
    When will some people realise that a parent's assets are exactly that - the parent's.
    That is until such time as she/he has no further use for them as they have left this earth.
     
  3. Mike_

    Mike_ Registered User

    Apr 10, 2014
    2
    Can you rent the house out and fund care fees from the rent. Depends on house i suppose.
     
  4. Ginny Hendricks

    Ginny Hendricks Registered User

    Feb 18, 2016
    16
    Of course parents' assets remain theirs and no-one has any right to expect any inheritance - but what infuriates so many of us is the different treatment of dementia sufferers compared with other terminally-ill people. Imagine the outcry if, say, cancer patients going into a hospice for palliative care were told they had to pay all their 'hotel costs'; it would be unthinkable, yet dementia sufferers who need care solely because they are ill are expected to use up nearly all their assets - and then of course nearly all their income - if they live long enough. It's a gross injustice and completely indefensible in my view. We have to develop a fairer system in line with the recent King's Fund report or watch in horror (as indeed we are doing already) as the whole care edifice collapses.
     
  5. Suzanna1969

    Suzanna1969 Registered User

    Mar 28, 2015
    346
    Essex
    My Dad (who has full capacity still but is housebound with Vascular Parkinsonism) is desperately worried about their house being swallowed up by care home fees as it was always their intention for us to have it when they are gone. That's why they scrimped and scraped all their lives. I know the thought of it all just 'going into the pockets of some greedy care home owner' (his words) is keeping him awake at night. He tells me every day that he hates himself for not signing the house over to us years ago when he had the chance, but was advised against it.

    He asked me the other day how much care home fees are now for people requiring his and Mum's level of care. When I told him he was horrified, all his life he's been 'careful' with money (borderline obsessed) and he just can't get a handle on care home fees today. But it's actually a spur for him to keep fighting for his mobility and to keep strong for Mum. Otherwise I fear he might just give up.

    At the moment it is definitely in both their best interests to stay in their own home with me providing daily support. My Dad would not fare well in a home. With their different needs they might not even be able to stay together anyway and I think that would finish Dad off and suspect Mum would decline without him.

    Obviously I can't help but worry about what will happen to us if we do lose the house. I went part time then gave up work to look after my parents. By the time this is all over I could be in my 50s and will probably struggle to find a job at all, never mind on a par with what I used to earn. My ex husband managed to take the savings I had built up (don't ask, long story!), I don't have children to look after me in my old age if I succumb to the same condition as my Mum or Dad so without my 'inheritance' what will happen to me? I'm scared about the future without it, I don't think that makes me a bad or mercenary person.
     
  6. Georgina63

    Georgina63 Registered User

    Aug 11, 2014
    776
    Ooh. That did cause a sharp intake of breath - such a calculating point of view. As has been pointed out it's their (your parents') money. The system of funding is most unfair, but I have never considered any sort of inheritance a given - just as well, as both parents, who worked hard and saved well, have recently moved into a CH! :rolleyes: Gx
     
  7. Sam Luvit

    Sam Luvit Registered User

    Oct 19, 2016
    2,475
    East Sussex
    Yes I agree that funding is unfair, but I also believe that mums money is hers, as is the house & everything in it

    If she needs more care, she will pay, if it's a CH, the house will be sold to pay for it. Thems the rules

    My parents worked hard, saved for their retirement & did without in order to do that. It is sad that dad didn't get to enjoy it, not going there, but mum can enjoy the same quality as pre diagnosis & I intend to do my utmost to keep her happy & settled

    I too sold up & moved, gave up a "good" job & am unlikely to be in a position (or even capable) of doing that work again. My choice. No one put a gun to my head & made me do this

    I've never counted on "my" inheritance. It's not my money. I didn't earn it, so I'm not spending it

    I'd like to leave something to my sons, but that doesn't mean they are entitled to anything, it's just a wish from me

    Mum worries about me being left with nothing, I joke that I'll be homeless, so hang on a while so I can make plans (no chance), but I've told her, the house is for her care, if she needs it

    End of as far as I'm concerned
     
  8. love.dad.but..

    love.dad.but.. Registered User

    Jan 16, 2014
    798
    Maidstone.Kent
    Dad self funds in the SE and pays £1300 pw which is quite the going rate in this area. I have sold his house and his funds are being used to keep him safe and looked after and if it means using all the money so be it...that is as it should be ...his money his need. What does concern me though is the lack of level playing field for self funders who generally as recently reported make up a serious shortfall for providers whose LA or CHC funded residents are charged less. I have no problem that if a resident has no savings or assets or has already exhausted their house sale proceeds on care they should be funded but the ticking time bomb I can see happening well after I have departed in years to come is this. Less people are buying their own homes and more renting apparently because for many the deposit or mortgage is out of their reach in many areas of the UK so in 50 years time for instance maybe people will not be able to self fund from their house sale as they don't own their property to sell!
     
  9. Pickles53

    Pickles53 Registered User

    Feb 25, 2014
    2,443
    Radcliffe on Trent

    Why are people so obsessed with inheritance? My parents scrimped and saved for their house....so they had a home to live in. Neither they nor we their children expected or were concerned about what we might inherit. We are all perfectly capable of earning our own living. I also want to say to people who ask these questions, if you don't want to self-fund social care then be willing to pay for it through higher taxation and vote accordingly.
     
  10. Kevinl

    Kevinl Registered User

    Aug 24, 2013
    3,818
    Salford
    Does anyone know or have a link to the newspaper article that started this thread, I can't find on?
    K
     
  11. canary

    canary Registered User

    Feb 25, 2014
    4,565
    South coast
    Its probably not online Kevin.
    I saw it yesterday in the "Troubleshooter" money advice page in the Times.
     
  12. oilovlam

    oilovlam Registered User

    Aug 2, 2015
    388
    South East
    Love.dad.but, I know you are a genuine person but I have always wanted to know, what happens when the money runs out? You pay £1300 per week (which is top end care IMO...fair enough) but when the assets are depleted do the local authority keep them in the same 'luxury' home or move them to a more modest council funded establishment. I suspect that they ask the family to pay the difference....or else it's Fawlty Towers.
     
  13. Kevinl

    Kevinl Registered User

    Aug 24, 2013
    3,818
    Salford
    When the money runs out the LA give you a budget and either you find somewhere at that price or you pay a top up, so if you want to keep them in the "luxury" home then you have to pay the top up.
    I guess the longer you live in care the higher the chances of the money running out so anyone with early onset is really stuck or if you live in an area with lower house prices even though care may be cheaper the differential between care costs is nothing like as great as the house price value differential.
    K
     
  14. Pete R

    Pete R Registered User

    Jul 26, 2014
    1,821
    Staffs
    It may belong to the parents but unfortunately once a care home beckons they are not free to do with it as they wish. Is there any other situation where this happens as I cannot think of one?

    :)
     
  15. BR_ANA

    BR_ANA Registered User

    Jun 27, 2012
    1,080
    Brazil
  16. Malalie

    Malalie Registered User

    Sep 1, 2016
    124
    Female
    grantham
    I suppose that the difference is that the PWD live SO much longer. The LA's are intending to cut money going into social care now( according to some newspaper reports today), and you can't get money out of a stone. It's a terribly bad situation at the moment...
     
  17. love.dad.but..

    love.dad.but.. Registered User

    Jan 16, 2014
    798
    Maidstone.Kent
    #17 love.dad.but.., Jan 31, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2017
    I am not sure what you mean by am I genuine person! I did not choose a luxury home for dad! I have not chosen the home on price to get through his funds so he would then qualify for LA funding!All the 16 homes I looked at across a wide area of Kent were all between £1000 to 1200 but that was 3 years ago and have increased each year by 8% each year. Many homes out of the 16 turned dad down as he is a pacer and they said they wouldn't be able to cope as that was challenging so the homes that only took early residential dementia which may have been cheaper refused him.I didn't choose what you call top end care in the SE that price is what we are faced with and there are more expensive homes than that. However please don't worry that dad will be a drain on any LA..his house sale funds will probably last longer than he does! Fawlty Towers would have been fine if it would have taken dad.I have yet to find any modest council run dementia care homes in my area. Many residents at dads NH are CHC funded and those that are partly LA funded presumably have relatives paying a top up plus some are moved out when their funds run out.
     
  18. oilovlam

    oilovlam Registered User

    Aug 2, 2015
    388
    South East
    Love.dad.but, sorry if I offended you. I was trying to ask a general question and may have phrased it badly.

    I know you are a genuine person (it was meant to be a statement). I have read some of your other posts and they led me to believe that you have the best interests of your relative in mind.

    Comment about 'luxury' home wasn't a criticism....I don't have any knowledge of CH costs....I do know that they were over £1000 pw for a good one in our area about 4-5 years ago....so that could easily be £1300 pw now. Specialist dementia 'friendly' homes (ones that actually have the trained staff & facilities) would presumably be even costlier....if you can find them (hens teeth springs to mind).

    No....I was just trying to ask (badly...I apologise) is what happens when a person enters a care home, gets settled, they are safe and well cared for....but the money runs out? I was hoping that someone would say that the LA would continue to keep them there....but KevinL said that they are moved to somewhere less expensive unless their family pay the top-up.

    It's a wonder there aren't insurance schemes for such situations. There probably are.....there was also talk of a government cap....what happened about that? But I guess any government scheme would not cover the costlier homes....which are the places that people with dementia require.
     
  19. Ginny Hendricks

    Ginny Hendricks Registered User

    Feb 18, 2016
    16
    The government cap, based on the Dilnot Report, has been shelved until 2020; there's considerable doubt as to whether it will come in at all.

    It's possible to buy annuities to cover care costs but they're expensive.

    With regard to staying in a home when the money runs out, the LA is legally obliged to fund a place which will meet the resident's assessed needs; if no other suitable place can be found (and it can be argued, of course, that staying somewhere familiar within reach of family is very much a need), they have to pay whatever it costs.
     
  20. Murper1

    Murper1 Registered User

    Jan 1, 2016
    101
    #20 Murper1, Feb 1, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2017
    I think it is ok, sensible even, for parents to lawfully arrange their own finances with a view to leaving an inheritance. But, oh dear, it turns me cold cold cold when I hear people talking about their inheritance being used up! To me, no one should be thinking of inheritance while their parents are alive and particularly if they need to be looked after.

    But our current system of funding for PWD is unfair that is for sure, especially as dementia is a degenerative disease. I would like all dementia sufferers to have good care, whether LA funded PWD or self funded. Though it irks me just a little that self funders in carehomes subsidise local authority places, and therefore effectively being taxed a second time. As has been already pointed out, in the SE dementia self funded places are often an astounding £1300 per week (though I was quoted £950 a week for one carehome which has just received a very poor inspection rating). Mum's SW said that their budget for funding a dementia client is £600). It just means that doesn't take long for a lot of self funders to join the already stretched local authority lists as their funds are quickly depleted. Just doesn't seem sustainable.

    With all our collective experience on TP, maybe we should work out fairer ways to have a care system for our loved ones. Would be an interesting discussion.

    Re: annuities - I understand that the govt had hoped that lots of firms would want to offer annuities, but in effect, only a couple are now available.
     

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