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Resign / revoke Joint POA and hand over to Court of Protection appointed Solicitor?

MissBB

Registered User
Aug 20, 2013
30
Hi there - I'm in a very difficult situation. I feel I can't continue with the POA. The option of revoking the POA (reporting to Office of Public Guardian) feels like my best option. I have got some advice from a lawyer who suggested I do this.
I'm trying to make contact people who have taken this route after a Joint POA becomes unworkable. There are scare stories that I'll have no control over my parents best interests (both in care homes with dementia) and that a Court appointed solicitor will charge a fortune to manage parents finances.
But my situation is untenable and I feel I am at risk.
Any experience of this would be very appreciated.
 

Jessbow

Registered User
Mar 1, 2013
2,988
West Hertfordshire
Bottom line is...you either keep hold of the baton, or your relinquish it.Its not a scare story, its a fact



if you do resign, then no, you wont have any say.

yes a court appointed person does charge and you are right,, it isnt cheap
 

Shedrech

Volunteer Moderator
Dec 15, 2012
8,729
Yorkshire
hi @MissBB
I guess you are unable to work with the other Attorney ... you mentioned this in a previous post

have you spoken with the OPG .... you can call them and discuss a hypothetical/potential issue without giving any details to identify you ... though, of course, that means the advisor will only be able to suggest so much ... I did this and found it very helpful (I was on hold for sometime but it was well worth the wait)

I have also emailed them so it was possible to show the reply to my co Attorney if necessary (I never took things any further myself)

if you have evidence to show that the other Attorney has repeatedly acted inappropriately as Attorney and towards you, it may be that the OPG will take steps to remove them ... possibly leaving you as Attorney or then being able to apply to be Deputy ... though, yes, it may also be that LPAs end and a professional Deputy is appointed (and paid to act)

maybe, sadly, it is time to have things taken out of family hands ... any Deputy and medics involved have a duty and responsibility to act in the person's best interests and may well consult family to take their knowledge and views into account, though I don't believe they have to
 

Beate

Registered User
May 21, 2014
11,893
London
You can't have it both ways - revoke your attorneyship and still have influence. Once you no longer are an attorney, things will be decided without you, whether you like those decisions or not.

And yes, court appointed solicitors cost money. However, would the other attorney not be able to continue without you?
 

Louise7

Registered User
Mar 25, 2016
1,776
Just to clarify, only the donor can 'revoke' an LPA. Attorney's can choose to stop being an attorney by sending a notification form to the donor, OPG and any other attorneys. If the LPA authority is joint & several rather than joint then the other attorney can remain but they will also need to step down if the LPA authority is joint only. Details here: https://www.gov.uk/lasting-power-attorney-duties/stop-attorney.

You've previously mentioned that the other attorney has been violent towards you in the past. He may not like having to step down as attorney so please take steps to keep safe.
 

Palerider

Registered User
Aug 9, 2015
1,425
North West
I think there are somes things to consider here before jumping the gun. I think @Shedrech has reasoned some aspects of this out really well, but I think the other problem you first need to face is in whether you should relinquish your role of POA just becasue you cannot reach agreement with the other POA/s or endure bad behaviour. The point of having a shared POA is that where there is no agreement then a decision cannot be made, and as much as this might seem untenable that is the role of a power of attorney when the responsibility is shared. It maybe that your role as POA is preventing the wrong decisions and it may necessary for you to reproach this again (though I am not aware of what the issues have been) with the other POA/s.

I would certainly contact the OPG and seek advice as @Shedrech has said and see what the general options are, but be mindful of why you were asked to be a POA by your parents, some things aren't easy and yes people unpredictable and difficult. Don't revoke this until you are sure, absolutely that it is the right thing to do, especially if there are concerns about other POA's, better to stay put than leave no defences at all.

With respect to medics, they can make decisions without consulting you, but generally they will involve family/NOK, but you will need to ensure they're aware that you exist and will want to be heard. I don't know about deputies, but I assume they would not have to consult you around any decision making.

Sorry I don't know your circumstances so I may have gone off at a tangent in terms of the response
 

MissBB

Registered User
Aug 20, 2013
30
Just to clarify, only the donor can 'revoke' an LPA. Attorney's can choose to stop being an attorney by sending a notification form to the donor, OPG and any other attorneys. If the LPA authority is joint & several rather than joint then the other attorney can remain but they will also need to step down if the LPA authority is joint only. Details here: https://www.gov.uk/lasting-power-attorney-duties/stop-attorney.

You've previously mentioned that the other attorney has been violent towards you in the past. He may not like having to step down as attorney so please take steps to keep safe.
Thank you. So yes it would be me stepping down - and we are joint attorneys - not joint and several so we would both have to step down. I am prepared to do this as long as I can get assurance that a court appointed deputy will act in my parents best interest.

This is why I would be very grateful to hear from someone who has actually gone down this route - and their experience of it. A friend who is a lawyer reassures me that a deputy would act in my parents best interests. I am finding out more about how to protect myself before I do this.
 

MissBB

Registered User
Aug 20, 2013
30
I think there are somes things to consider here before jumping the gun. I think @Shedrech has reasoned some aspects of this out really well, but I think the other problem you first need to face is in whether you should relinquish your role of POA just becasue you cannot reach agreement with the other POA/s or endure bad behaviour. The point of having a shared POA is that where there is no agreement then a decision cannot be made, and as much as this might seem untenable that is the role of a power of attorney when the responsibility is shared. It maybe that your role as POA is preventing the wrong decisions and it may necessary for you to reproach this again (though I am not aware of what the issues have been) with the other POA/s.

I would certainly contact the OPG and seek advice as @Shedrech has said and see what the general options are, but be mindful of why you were asked to be a POA by your parents, some things aren't easy and yes people unpredictable and difficult. Don't revoke this until you are sure, absolutely that it is the right thing to do, especially if there are concerns about other POA's, better to stay put than leave no defences at all.

With respect to medics, they can make decisions without consulting you, but generally they will involve family/NOK, but you will need to ensure they're aware that you exist and will want to be heard. I don't know about deputies, but I assume they would not have to consult you around any decision making.

Sorry I don't know your circumstances so I may have gone off at a tangent in terms of the response
Thank you. I understand the responsibility and have been doing my best for 8 years. But the stress is damaging my health, my marriage and my family. The stress is caused by having to battle with the Joint POA. Again I can't go into too much detail here. But it is serious.

When you say better to stay put than leave no defences at all - I'm not sure I understand? please could you give me a bit more detail here? Its Joint (not Joint and several) so if I step down I believe the co attorney has to as well.
 

MissBB

Registered User
Aug 20, 2013
30
hi @MissBB
I guess you are unable to work with the other Attorney ... you mentioned this in a previous post

have you spoken with the OPG .... you can call them and discuss a hypothetical/potential issue without giving any details to identify you ... though, of course, that means the advisor will only be able to suggest so much ... I did this and found it very helpful (I was on hold for sometime but it was well worth the wait)

I have also emailed them so it was possible to show the reply to my co Attorney if necessary (I never took things any further myself)

if you have evidence to show that the other Attorney has repeatedly acted inappropriately as Attorney and towards you, it may be that the OPG will take steps to remove them ... possibly leaving you as Attorney or then being able to apply to be Deputy ... though, yes, it may also be that LPAs end and a professional Deputy is appointed (and paid to act)

maybe, sadly, it is time to have things taken out of family hands ... any Deputy and medics involved have a duty and responsibility to act in the person's best interests and may well consult family to take their knowledge and views into account, though I don't believe they have to
Thank you. I find this very reassuring. I'm going to call the OPG.
 

MissBB

Registered User
Aug 20, 2013
30
Bottom line is...you either keep hold of the baton, or your relinquish it.Its not a scare story, its a fact



if you do resign, then no, you wont have any say.

yes a court appointed person does charge and you are right,, it isnt cheap
Thanks - I've found out some more about cost here

And will find out more from OPG
 

Palerider

Registered User
Aug 9, 2015
1,425
North West
Thank you. I understand the responsibility and have been doing my best for 8 years. But the stress is damaging my health, my marriage and my family. The stress is caused by having to battle with the Joint POA. Again I can't go into too much detail here. But it is serious.

When you say better to stay put than leave no defences at all - I'm not sure I understand? please could you give me a bit more detail here? Its Joint (not Joint and several) so if I step down I believe the co attorney has to as well.
I am sorry to hear that you have reached the end of the road with this matter and it seems to be really impacting on you and your family more than it should.

I mean't by saying what I said that sometimes its best to try and hang-in there, but as you have explained that is no longer possible. A difficult time for you and I sincerely hope you find some resolve
 

canary

Registered User
Feb 25, 2014
11,617
South coast
Thats a pretty fair assessment of the cost or COP deputyship if a solicitor has been appointed @MissBB .

Usually the best advice is to try and work with the other deputy, but the hints point towards things being quite extreme. The main down side of a solicitor appointed deputy is that you will have no say in what happens. Certainly the deputy has to make decision which are in their "best interest", but this is a somewhat woolly concept, Is it in their "best interest" to move them to a care home (and how do you decide which one is best)? They may decide to dispose of the house and all the possessions - perhaps by involving a house clearance firm and you may not get the chance to retrieve items of sentimental value. They will decide whether to pay for a holiday that the person with dementia desperately wants and how much to budget for clothes, outings and other sundries. You will have no right to see any of the financial details. All of these things have been the subject of threads on this forum. You may find that you dont have any problems with this - there are members here whose person with dementia has a solicitor appointed deputy and they manage , but you may have problems and its best to be aware of it now.

I think that only you can weigh up all the pros and cons, but if things have broken down so far between you and the other attorney, then you may decide that this is the best of two evils.
 

Aussiesheila

Registered User
Jul 13, 2013
20
Hi there - I'm in a very difficult situation. I feel I can't continue with the POA. The option of revoking the POA (reporting to Office of Public Guardian) feels like my best option. I have got some advice from a lawyer who suggested I do this.
I'm trying to make contact people who have taken this route after a Joint POA becomes unworkable. There are scare stories that I'll have no control over my parents best interests (both in care homes with dementia) and that a Court appointed solicitor will charge a fortune to manage parents finances.
But my situation is untenable and I feel I am at risk.
Any experience of this would be very appreciated.
I have gone down this route a few years ago now. Firstly I would say I am sorry to hear that your situation with your co attorney has come to this point - as this sounds a similar situation to my own I completely understand why you feel the need to make this step (as I did). Your health and welfare is as important as anyone else.
Without going into particular details I can let you know that OPG who I spoke to on a few occasions were helpful explaining the necessary steps. The process going through the COP took some time and effort (and was emotionally draining) but ultimately, when I look back I feel a huge weight has been lifted from my shoulders. My Mum (who lives in Australia) has her UK finances now looked after by a paid professional deputy. In her situation not much is required of him other than to keep her finances in the UK in order, and I find him quite happy to communicate with me by phone or email.
Obviously everyones situation is different and unique, so my own personal reasons for requiring this revokation will not be the same as yours or anyone else's, but if you believe that this is the right choice for your health and wellbeing I would suggest that you at least start to make enquiries to find out whether it would be a process and outcome you could manage and be comfortable with.
Good luck MissBB.
 

MissBB

Registered User
Aug 20, 2013
30
Thats a pretty fair assessment of the cost or COP deputyship if a solicitor has been appointed @MissBB .

Usually the best advice is to try and work with the other deputy, but the hints point towards things being quite extreme. The main down side of a solicitor appointed deputy is that you will have no say in what happens. Certainly the deputy has to make decision which are in their "best interest", but this is a somewhat woolly concept, Is it in their "best interest" to move them to a care home (and how do you decide which one is best)? They may decide to dispose of the house and all the possessions - perhaps by involving a house clearance firm and you may not get the chance to retrieve items of sentimental value. They will decide whether to pay for a holiday that the person with dementia desperately wants and how much to budget for clothes, outings and other sundries. You will have no right to see any of the financial details. All of these things have been the subject of threads on this forum. You may find that you dont have any problems with this - there are members here whose person with dementia has a solicitor appointed deputy and they manage , but you may have problems and its best to be aware of it now.

I think that only you can weigh up all the pros and cons, but if things have broken down so far between you and the other attorney, then you may decide that this is the best of two evils.
Thanks thats helpful. Without too much detail - both parents are settled in care homes - mum advanced dementia (7 years since diagnosis), dad earlier stages but he is older. House is on the market. Am thinking step down once house sold if I can manage things that far. Then financial management should be quite straightforward after house sold :- pay monthly care home bills from an estate that will cover next 6 years for mum, and at least15 years for dad (he has good pension topped up a little from savings).
The only thing I worry about is if the appointed deputy wanted to move either parent to a care home I felt was not good for them. I foresee more difficult situations / complications / disagreements arising by staying in joint POA than handing over to COP.
You are right - its my decision, just feeling i need to know as much as I can before I do this.. I'm finding this forum helpful and informative, thank you.
 

MissBB

Registered User
Aug 20, 2013
30
I have gone down this route a few years ago now. Firstly I would say I am sorry to hear that your situation with your co attorney has come to this point - as this sounds a similar situation to my own I completely understand why you feel the need to make this step (as I did). Your health and welfare is as important as anyone else.
Without going into particular details I can let you know that OPG who I spoke to on a few occasions were helpful explaining the necessary steps. The process going through the COP took some time and effort (and was emotionally draining) but ultimately, when I look back I feel a huge weight has been lifted from my shoulders. My Mum (who lives in Australia) has her UK finances now looked after by a paid professional deputy. In her situation not much is required of him other than to keep her finances in the UK in order, and I find him quite happy to communicate with me by phone or email.
Obviously everyones situation is different and unique, so my own personal reasons for requiring this revokation will not be the same as yours or anyone else's, but if you believe that this is the right choice for your health and wellbeing I would suggest that you at least start to make enquiries to find out whether it would be a process and outcome you could manage and be comfortable with.
Good luck MissBB.
Thank you so much. This is how I feel, making me feel ill. I owe it to my husband and family to find another way where my parents and I are protected by the law.
Its reassuring to hear that communication with Deputy is possible.
Please can you tell me how long it took to go down COP process - and why it was emotionally draining?
I'm told that if I give my reason to stand down that other Attorney is unfit then an investigation will look into this - up to 14 weeks. Is this what you refer to?
Thanks
 

MissBB

Registered User
Aug 20, 2013
30
I called the OPG and COP. Was helpful. Couple of questions have come up though which you might know answer to - once I start the process (I would request a Panel Deputy appointed) the co-attorney could either:
a) accept COP appointment of Panel Deputy or
b) object - which would then lead to a court hearing

OPG mentioned there is no guarantee they'll appoint a Panel Deputy and it could end up being referred to Social Services - or no deputy at all (!!) leaving parents 'vulnerable people'. This would be awful.
I assume this would only be the case if court thinks there were not enough funds to pay a Panel Deputy?

I think there are enough funds having looked at costs here:

Do you know what criteria COP use to decide on appointing a Panel Deputy as opposed to Social Services or no deputy at all? Does it all depend on assets?

Thank you in advance if you can answer these questions.
 

Aussiesheila

Registered User
Jul 13, 2013
20
Thank you so much. This is how I feel, making me feel ill. I owe it to my husband and family to find another way where my parents and I are protected by the law.
Its reassuring to hear that communication with Deputy is possible.
Please can you tell me how long it took to go down COP process - and why it was emotionally draining?
I'm told that if I give my reason to stand down that other Attorney is unfit then an investigation will look into this - up to 14 weeks. Is this what you refer to?
Thanks
Hi Miss BB,
As I mentioned I imagine our situation is similar in some ways but not all, so anything I recount about that period of time possibly relates just to my experience. However, if it helps by giving you a feeling of support then I am happy to try and explain my process.
In a nutshell I needed to revoke the LPA (financial) as my co-attorney either couldn't or wouldn't comprehend the financial benefits of a particular course of action connected to Mums care here in Australia. I was able to do some research online and find a professional who was prepared to assist. The case was heard by the Court of Protection in London and although my co-attorney had requested his sole appointment instead, the Judge appointed the professional deputy.
It was emotionally draining and took a long period of time only because my co-attorney in applying himself, created a collection of witness statements (Cop 24) of misinformation and untruths which then required me to disprove with my own witness statements. Collecting supporting evidence to counter his claims and accusations was the emotionally draining and time consuming part of the process. Fortunately I could demonstrate the financial benefits for Mum and they were straightforward and completely indisputable, so I think that the Judge was ultimately able to make her decision in favour of the professional deputy as it is the Courts responsibility (and an attorneys) to act in the best financial interest of the person who lacks capacity.
The deputy has acted on my Mums behalf for about 5 years now and as I mentioned he is happy to take phone calls and emails.
 

MissBB

Registered User
Aug 20, 2013
30
Thank you. It's likely this might happen with me - that the co-attorney will apply to become deputy and I would have to provide evidence at a court hearing as to why I think the co-attorney is unfit to be the deputy. I am quite confident I have enough evidence, and statements from family & friends to back up my evidence. And I understand that the hearing would be entirely centred around what would be in my parents best interest - so what the co-attorney has done to me personally is less relevant / irrelevant. I think I have enough evidence to show that the co-attorney has acted in a number of ways that are 'unfit' (can't go into too much detail) and its unlikely he would win. But of course there is a risk in taking this path. I'm weighing up that risk very carefully.
Thank you.
 

Aussiesheila

Registered User
Jul 13, 2013
20
Thank you. It's likely this might happen with me - that the co-attorney will apply to become deputy and I would have to provide evidence at a court hearing as to why I think the co-attorney is unfit to be the deputy. I am quite confident I have enough evidence, and statements from family & friends to back up my evidence. And I understand that the hearing would be entirely centred around what would be in my parents best interest - so what the co-attorney has done to me personally is less relevant / irrelevant. I think I have enough evidence to show that the co-attorney has acted in a number of ways that are 'unfit' (can't go into too much detail) and its unlikely he would win. But of course there is a risk in taking this path. I'm weighing up that risk very carefully.
Thank you.
Hello Miss BB
Yes, there is an element of risk in taking the step of disclaiming your joint LPA, so it is good to weigh up all the pros and cons in order to reach a decision about taking this step.
I found it helpful to go online to the Court of Protection website, there you can see and print the various forms that you may need to fill in - it will give you an opportunity to check whether you have all the information you need to support your possible witness statement (COP24) if your co attorney chooses to apply to become the deputy, and the matter moves forward to a Court of Protection hearing. There are guidelines as to how the forms need to be completed and how to submit any relevant information. I tried to keep my statement concise, factual and relevant to what is in the best interests of your parents as they are the primary concern to the court.
I was only disclaiming the LPA for Financial and Property Matters and not for Health and Welfare. In my case that was not relevant as my Mum lives in Australia.
Hope this helps
 

canary

Registered User
Feb 25, 2014
11,617
South coast
Hi @MissBB - your experience is very different from mine and I never had to go down the route of revoking POA/deputyship. There is one little thing that hasnt really been mentioned, though. The CoP does not issue deputyship for Health and Welfare, except in extremely unusual cases, so I think this would be the scenario that if you revoked the H&W POA, then nothing will be put in place.

In my case I went for deputyship as mum wouldnt sign POA and then it got too late, but fortunately my brother was happy for me to make decisions and there was never any disagreements. If my brother had argued over H&W issues (where she lived, for example) then the matter would have to have gone to court for the them to make a judgement each time with all the expenses that would accrue.

You may feel that, like @Aussiesheila you are able to just relinquish the Financial POA, but if not, do be aware that nothing for H&W will be put in its place.