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Question re using POA

Frank24

Registered User
Feb 13, 2018
239
0
I wondered if anyone could advise me of the legal position of the following. I am POA for my Mum who is end stage in a care home. She is currently in receipt of CHC funding and her state of health is fairly poor. I kept my Mum in her home town even though it was a journey away from me as I thought the family that lived there would visit also and she would have more visitors and a better quality of life. Plus where I live care is more expensive so I thought it was a better use of her funds as none of us have a crystal ball. The pandemic hit which forced the move, and has hit my finances somewhat plus narrowed down on the affordable route I was planning to visit as coach trips have stopped that particular route which I always had in mind would allow me to make more visits. The pandemic has also completely taken away any obligation my mums family felt to visit too it seems... we have family living abroad who FaceTime as much as possible so I am the only visitor. I don't think Mum is seeing enough of any family and the carer remarked that my mum was way more talkative with me than she is with any residents. I am wondering if I can charge some of the trips back to my mum? I know if I could ask her and she understood she would be more than happy but I don't want to be accused of any wrong doing by OPG. I am not worried about deprivation of funds as if my mum lost her CHC status the proceeds from the sale of her house would more than fund care for the rest of her life as she really isn't well. I understand you can't claim back money for social visits - but if I am carrying out my role of POA monitoring her health and welfare and getting shopping, topping up petty cash and so on - should this be at my cost?
 

Andy54

Registered User
Sep 24, 2020
113
0
Certainly any out of pocket expenses for shopping or topping up petty cash funds for your Mom can be reclaimed. The visiting is perhaps something of a grey area. You could argue that they are not entirely "social" visits but are essential for her emotional well being. If the cost of these visits is relatively modest I personally wouldn't worry too much. To be accused of any wrongdoing someone would first have to be aware of this and then make the accusation. Do you think that other members of the family might object to you offsetting some of the cost of your visits?.
 

MartinWL

Registered User
Jun 12, 2020
1,451
0
I think it is perfectly reasonable to charge expenses for visiting your mother to her account, as it were. After all, your reason for going there is to benefit her, not to benefit yourself. I expect if she was well you would visit socially now and again but you are probably visiting far more often in order to give her care, check up on her wellbeing, ensure that she has all she needs and so on. There is no black and white answer to this but I think it extremely unlikely that you will be challenged so long as the expenses are reasonable.
 

DreamsAreReal

Registered User
Oct 17, 2015
216
0
You can charge for travel costs incurred whilst carrying out your duty of Attorney. It also says (OPG web site) keep records of important decisions, like selling the donor’s house. Not small everyday stuff. If I was you, I’d be interpreting that as a yes.
 

Feeling unsupported

Registered User
Jul 9, 2021
74
0
I'm in a very similar situation. There is no reasonable public transport between my home and PWD's care home. Whilst previously I could get a lift for social visits etc, as PWD's health has declined it became evident that I needed to visit more often and sometimes with no notice and even during the night with hospital admissions etc. As a consequence I have had to purchase a car, solely because of this. In better times PWD would regularly slip me £10 for my fuel etc. My family say I should take something from her funds (I have POA) to cover these costs, but I feel very wary of doing so. I am always conscious that every penny spent must be for PWD.
 

Shedrech

Volunteer Moderator
Dec 15, 2012
11,304
0
Yorkshire
Personally I think covid and lockdown has brought home to us how significant visiting is and for me it's more important that you visit than it is to save your mum's finances regardless

You have assessed her assets and are sure that she could finance her care if necessary... keep records and be reasonable about costs

I hope you both benefit from seeing each other
 

Shedrech

Volunteer Moderator
Dec 15, 2012
11,304
0
Yorkshire
Hi @Feeling unsupported
the spending is to be for the benefit of the person... and there's much benefit gained from being visited... my opinion

Be careful with any spending and make a note of amounts... but your person needs you to visit
 

Frank24

Registered User
Feb 13, 2018
239
0
Thanks for your replies. It is. Total grey area. I do have someone who might object, a sibling who has done nothing and doesn’t visit even although he is 20 mins away. If he objects it will be when my mum is no longer around in which cause worse case situation I would have to pay it back I guess? He would obviously be a beneficiary to anything that could be left over so I’m sure he’ll have something to say or it could be viewed negatively but I feel like I’m not going enough because of cost and that isn’t in my mums best interest. Keeping all receipts. I think there is an argument for best interest her. Over the years I havd funded so many trips to take mum to events socials etc without blinking an eye. I am at that point where I feel what are they going to do sue me! I don’t card frankly! A trip on thdteIn is around 80 pounds. I fund the x 4 taxis that are involved.
 

Frank24

Registered User
Feb 13, 2018
239
0
I'm in a very similar situation. There is no reasonable public transport between my home and PWD's care home. Whilst previously I could get a lift for social visits etc, as PWD's health has declined it became evident that I needed to visit more often and sometimes with no notice and even during the night with hospital admissions etc. As a consequence I have had to purchase a car, solely because of this. In better times PWD would regularly slip me £10 for my fuel etc. My family say I should take something from her funds (I have POA) to cover these costs, but I feel very wary of doing so. I am always conscious that every penny spent must be for PWD.
I feel like you awkward about it but would rather see my mum more in her last days. Especially as no one else is visiting
 

Andy54

Registered User
Sep 24, 2020
113
0
Thanks for your replies. It is. Total grey area. I do have someone who might object, a sibling who has done nothing and doesn’t visit even although he is 20 mins away. If he objects it will be when my mum is no longer around in which cause worse case situation I would have to pay it back I guess? He would obviously be a beneficiary to anything that could be left over so I’m sure he’ll have something to say or it could be viewed negatively but I feel like I’m not going enough because of cost and that isn’t in my mums best interest. Keeping all receipts. I think there is an argument for best interest her. Over the years I havd funded so many trips to take mum to events socials etc without blinking an eye. I am at that point where I feel what are they going to do sue me! I don’t card frankly! A trip on thdteIn is around 80 pounds. I fund the x 4 taxis that are involved.
I can't see the OPG being concerned by a few train fares in the unlikely event of a complaint. As attorney your duty is to your mom's needs, not any possible future beneficiary's.
 

MartinWL

Registered User
Jun 12, 2020
1,451
0
I'm in a very similar situation. There is no reasonable public transport between my home and PWD's care home. Whilst previously I could get a lift for social visits etc, as PWD's health has declined it became evident that I needed to visit more often and sometimes with no notice and even during the night with hospital admissions etc. As a consequence I have had to purchase a car, solely because of this. In better times PWD would regularly slip me £10 for my fuel etc. My family say I should take something from her funds (I have POA) to cover these costs, but I feel very wary of doing so. I am always conscious that every penny spent must be for PWD.
At the very least you could claim for petrol against receipts.
 

Frank24

Registered User
Feb 13, 2018
239
0
Hi @Feeling unsupported
the spending is to be for the benefit of the person... and there's much benefit gained from being visited... my opinion

Be careful with any spending and make a note of amounts... but your person needs you to visit
I can't see the OPG being concerned by a few train fares in the unlikely event of a complaint. As attorney your duty is to your mom's needs, not any possible future beneficiary's.
Thank you Andy
 

Duggies-girl

Registered User
Sep 6, 2017
3,008
0
Thanks for your replies. It is. Total grey area. I do have someone who might object, a sibling who has done nothing and doesn’t visit even although he is 20 mins away. If he objects it will be when my mum is no longer around in which cause worse case situation I would have to pay it back I guess? He would obviously be a beneficiary to anything that could be left over so I’m sure he’ll have something to say or it could be viewed negatively but I feel like I’m not going enough because of cost and that isn’t in my mums best interest. Keeping all receipts. I think there is an argument for best interest her. Over the years I havd funded so many trips to take mum to events socials etc without blinking an eye. I am at that point where I feel what are they going to do sue me! I don’t card frankly! A trip on thdteIn is around 80 pounds. I fund the x 4 taxis that are involved.
I had a similar sibling who lived round the corner from dad and rarely visited. He wasn't interested in dad but he was interested in the money. I ended up with dads motability car when dad could no longer drive and I drove it back and forwards from dads twice a day and used it for his shopping, appointments (dad paid for the petrol) I remember a comment from my sibling about 'having a free car' which was just nasty because I have my own car.

Just do it, you are giving valuable time to your mum, it's a perfectly reasonable expense as far as I can see. I suppose it would be fair to offer the sibling a free ticket. You say your mum has enough money so don't worry. I never kept receipts for dad, he never had so I didn't. I really wish that dad had spent a lot more of his money than he did but he was eventually too ill.

Don't even think about paying your sibling back.
 

Frank24

Registered User
Feb 13, 2018
239
0
I had a similar sibling who lived round the corner from dad and rarely visited. He wasn't interested in dad but he was interested in the money. I ended up with dads motability car when dad could no longer drive and I drove it back and forwards from dads twice a day and used it for his shopping, appointments (dad paid for the petrol) I remember a comment from my sibling about 'having a free car' which was just nasty because I have my own car.

Just do it, you are giving valuable time to your mum, it's a perfectly reasonable expense as far as I can see. I suppose it would be fair to offer the sibling a free ticket. You say your mum has enough money so don't worry. I never kept receipts for dad, he never had so I didn't. I really wish that dad had spent a lot more of his money than he did but he was eventually too ill.

Don't even think about paying your sibling back.
Thanks Duggies girl. My brother is a drive away and I don’t think anything would compel him to visit. He has been once in 1.5 years. Other family members who made a huge fuss about my mums “welfare” when she was living at home with 24 7 private care have not visited at all. I feel so sorry for my mum. She was always the person who visited other people who didn’t have many visitors.
 

Susan11

Registered User
Nov 18, 2018
4,044
0
I wondered if anyone could advise me of the legal position of the following. I am POA for my Mum who is end stage in a care home. She is currently in receipt of CHC funding and her state of health is fairly poor. I kept my Mum in her home town even though it was a journey away from me as I thought the family that lived there would visit also and she would have more visitors and a better quality of life. Plus where I live care is more expensive so I thought it was a better use of her funds as none of us have a crystal ball. The pandemic hit which forced the move, and has hit my finances somewhat plus narrowed down on the affordable route I was planning to visit as coach trips have stopped that particular route which I always had in mind would allow me to make more visits. The pandemic has also completely taken away any obligation my mums family felt to visit too it seems... we have family living abroad who FaceTime as much as possible so I am the only visitor. I don't think Mum is seeing enough of any family and the carer remarked that my mum was way more talkative with me than she is with any residents. I am wondering if I can charge some of the trips back to my mum? I know if I could ask her and she understood she would be more than happy but I don't want to be accused of any wrong doing by OPG. I am not worried about deprivation of funds as if my mum lost her CHC status the proceeds from the sale of her house would more than fund care for the rest of her life as she really isn't well. I understand you can't claim back money for social visits - but if I am carrying out my role of POA monitoring her health and welfare and getting shopping, topping up petty cash and so on - should this be at my cost?
Hi Frank We spent 20 months visiting my Mum 200 miles away every 2 weeks . I reclaimed from Mum's account the cost of petrol and the cost of an overnight stay in a Premier Inn as the only reason we had incurred these costs was in order to see her. I did not reclaim the food costs involved as I decided we would have had to eat if we were at home although as we had to eat out the food costs were higher.
 

Frank24

Registered User
Feb 13, 2018
239
0
Hi Frank We spent 20 months visiting my Mum 200 miles away every 2 weeks . I reclaimed from Mum's account the cost of petrol and the cost of an overnight stay in a Premier Inn as the only reason we had incurred these costs was in order to see her. I did not reclaim the food costs involved as I decided we would have had to eat if we were at home although as we had to eat out the food costs were higher.
Thank you Susan. It’s interesting to hear how other people have dealt with these issues x
 

Banjomansmate

Registered User
Jan 13, 2019
3,397
0
Dorset
I held LPA, so when The Banjoman’s daughters drove down to visit him I always put some money into their bank accounts afterwards to pay towards petrol and overnight costs once he was in residential care. I knew they didn’t earn much and their visits were for his benefit after all.
 

Duggies-girl

Registered User
Sep 6, 2017
3,008
0
Thanks Duggies girl. My brother is a drive away and I don’t think anything would compel him to visit. He has been once in 1.5 years. Other family members who made a huge fuss about my mums “welfare” when she was living at home with 24 7 private care have not visited at all. I feel so sorry for my mum. She was always the person who visited other people who didn’t have many visitors.
@Frank24 I think carers lose enough when they are looking after a loved one and I am not talking about money although that is a loss, I am talking about peace of mind, time, freedom, all we get is worry. Having POA is not a wonderful thing to have, it is not a joy, it is just another thing to have to worry about on top of everything else. Very few people take advantage, most worry themselves sick that they are not doing everything correctly and end up even worse off than they should be.

I am fed up with hearing about these siblings who do nothing but pick away at the carer bit by bit. They should be ashamed.
 

Jaded'n'faded

Registered User
Jan 23, 2019
2,420
0
High Peak
Claim your costs - you know it's honestly reasonable. Keep dates of visits and receipts. Deprivation of assets or benefitting from your mum's money when you are PoA is completely different. Are you emptying her accounts or taking more than you've spent? No. So just do it.

If at some later date your sibling chooses to complain about what's left, let them. There's nothing they can do. They are not going to hire solicitors (at enormous cost) to challenge a will (it's extremely rare for wills to be successfully challenged) just for a small amount they think has been unfairly taken. Even if they did, you'll have your receipts to show your expenses and they would simply be laughed out of court (and have to pay all the costs.)

You could always point out to your sibling that if they chose to help your mum, their expenses would also be met...
 

Frank24

Registered User
Feb 13, 2018
239
0
Thanks Jaded and Faded. Your right. Id happily give money from my Mums accounts for them to visit.
I've got a loft full of receipts! Keeping hold of everything - I would prefer Mum to benefit from her money as it is HER money while she is still here. I imagine I'll jay get slagged off. As they do that anyway, it really makes no difference.
 

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