1. Expert Q&A: Protecting a person with dementia from financial abuse - Weds 26 June, 3:30-4:30 pm

    Financial abuse can have serious consequences for a person with dementia. Find out how to protect a person with dementia from financial abuse.

    Sam, our Knowledge Officer (Legal and Welfare Rights) is our expert on this topic. She will be here to answer your questions on Wednesday 26 June between 3:30 - 4:30 pm.

    You can either post questions >here< or email them to us at talkingpoint@alzheimers.org.uk and we'll answer as many as we can on the day.

  1. Sally

    Sally Registered User

    Mar 16, 2004
    114
    London
    Hi folks,

    anyone know when the property disregard for partners came into effect? In other words, years ago people did have to sell their poperty when their partner went into care,now they don't, but when did this rule change?

    Just thought someone might know off the top of their hair-do!

    Sally
    x x
     
  2. Brucie

    Brucie Registered User

    Jan 31, 2004
    12,413
    near London
    I think it has been the case for some years now that, if the partner is living in the house, then it cannot be taken as that would mean their being made homeless.

    The situation gets complicated if the partner is able/needs to sell the house, because then half the equity [depending on the naming on the deeds] may be taken. Even then, under Power of Attorney, I think there are things that can be done.
     
  3. Sally

    Sally Registered User

    Mar 16, 2004
    114
    London
    #3 Sally, Jan 25, 2005
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2005
    thanks Brucie,
    I know the rules have changed but I need to know when exactly they changed because I think that one local authority has incorrectly forced someone to backdate payment. (it's really complicated!)

    best wishes,
    Sally
     
  4. Chris

    Chris Registered User

    May 20, 2003
    243
    CAB (Citizens ADvice Bureau sometimes have someone who is well up on these things).

    It would be great to have some clear info on this .

    I also heard that in some circumstnaces a 'charge' is put on the house (if a couple own it) and when it eventually gets sold - maybe a long time in hte future after hte surviving spouse dies - only hten will SS rear their heads & say we're claiming back the £xxxx we paid out for care home fees.

    EVERY situation is different - good advice is the key.

    It MAY depend on exactly what the ownership of the house is in legal terms ie Tenants or Common or whateve the alternative is - I have heard of some solicitors advisign people to quickly change to one or the other in order to future proof their assets for their children.

    Please note - Best advice ever, if a home owner , is to consult a solicitor experience in elder care etc - wel worth what ever it costs.

    It may even be advisable for eveyrone ot do this in earlier life - you neve rknow when nursingcare may become necessary - Sorry - didnt mean to sound depressing - but like making a will, best done , then you can forget about it.
     
  5. Norman

    Norman Registered User

    Oct 9, 2003
    4,348
    Birmingham Hades
    Sara
    don't we have a legal bod at AS?
    Norman
     
  6. Sally

    Sally Registered User

    Mar 16, 2004
    114
    London
    Hi all,

    A property must be fully disregarded while a partner resides there and the local authority (LA) cannot backdate anything under these circumstances. If the partner at home dies before the person in care and the house is NOT sold then the LA would be able to place a charge against the percentage the resident had inherited. If the house was joint tennancy the whole of it will pass to the person in residential, if the house was tennants in common then the deceased person might have left their half to a son or daughter in their Will so the person in care would only get their own half.

    Confused? You will be!

    Sally
    x x x x
     
  7. Brucie

    Brucie Registered User

    Jan 31, 2004
    12,413
    near London
    I changed to tenants in common since, if I died before Jan, I wanted as little of the estate to go to her family as possible, since they in effect abandoned her.

    Had I left it as it was originally, once any charge against the estate [if any] had been discharged, then they would have had the residue and I'd have had to come back to haunt them.
     
  8. Norman

    Norman Registered User

    Oct 9, 2003
    4,348
    Birmingham Hades
    We changed to tenants in common in case I died before Peg.
    I understand my half would go to the grand children in trust.
    If need be and Peg needed the trust monies I understand it could be used for her benifit.
    Tell me i'm right Sally,please,It is confusing folks
    Norman :confused:
     
  9. Sally

    Sally Registered User

    Mar 16, 2004
    114
    London
    Hi Norman,

    A good solicitor will have understoood the terms of the Trust as you explained them and set it up accordingly so that if you would like the money to be available for Peg then that would happen.You can always check with the solicitor that this is the case and give him/her a scenario in which you would want Peg to have access to the money so that they understand the situation.

    Sally
    x x x x
     
  10. Norman

    Norman Registered User

    Oct 9, 2003
    4,348
    Birmingham Hades
    Sally
    I think I was looking for reasurance.
    It was all set up by our FA and it was as I said.
    I have no worries
    Norman
    xx ;)
     
  11. emscub

    emscub Registered User

    Dec 5, 2003
    124
    Bath
    The thing we're having trouble working out though is how this works when the house isn't shared by a partner but by other relatives. My parents both look after my Nan, so there are five of us in the house altogether (including my sister) and we're still unsure about whether they will put a charge on our house if my Nan has to go into care, as the house was purchased with the proceeds of my Nan's flat and our last house.

    My Mum spoke to someone at the Alz Society the other day who said she didn't think they would be able to but was not definite, and we have had a rather bad experience with solicitors (regarding Power of Attorney) in the past few years (which still isn't resolved after much ringing around), so we're not sure where to go for advice even.

    It's a minefield!
     
  12. Sally

    Sally Registered User

    Mar 16, 2004
    114
    London
    Dear Emma,

    Since the house was bought with joint monies I assume that it is in joint names - your Nan's and maybe your Mum's, for example. If this is the case say your Nan went into care and the local authority wanted to place a charge against the property, you could point out to them that your Nan's share in the house is small given the likelihood of a willing buyer for that share. In other words, who would want to buy part of a house, especially with a family still living there? This exact example is given in the document CRAG (Charging for Residential Accommodation Guide) which advises people to get a professional evaluation done if a local authority are behaving unreasonably. The example it gives can be viewed through this link :
    http://www.dh.gov.uk/assetRoot/04/09/02/46/04090246.pdf. Go to Section 7 - Property and then point 7.014A

    I hope this helps!


    Sally
    x x
     
  13. emscub

    emscub Registered User

    Dec 5, 2003
    124
    Bath
    #13 emscub, Jan 31, 2005
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2005
    Thanks Sally,

    My Mum said last night that four of us are tenants in common - my mum, dad, sister and me. As we were all named in my Nan's will she had signed the proceeds from her flat over to us when we moved, and my sister and I are named as we have a share in the house now. This means that my Nan now, legally does not own the house at all, but we're worried that this might look as though we'd tried (along with my Nan) to evade the system somehow, when we actually just took the solicitors advice at the time.

    Just remembered also, that the solicitor mentioned something about them not being likely to place a charge on the house if my Nan had lived here for seven years (we've been here for three so far), as it would then be clear that we hadn't moved here simply to gain her money.

    Can they still place a charge on the house if she no longer owns any of it?
     
  14. Sheila

    Sheila Registered User

    Oct 23, 2003
    2,259
    West Sussex
    Hi Em, not sure how much it is, but I was given to understand that the charge is on a sliding scale, the longer, the less you pay. That is, if your Nan had died straight after giving the house to you, the charge would have been as though it were still hers. Three years down the line it will be quite a bit less, six years, less still, then seven years no charge as it would be like you said, she was not moved in to evade the tax. Love She. XX
     
  15. emscub

    emscub Registered User

    Dec 5, 2003
    124
    Bath
    Thanks She,

    That was something I didn't know - we've tried gaining advice from so many people now that we don't really know where else to look! As I said before, the lady we spoke to at the Alz Society also didn't know what would happen, and pointed us in the direction of the Guardianship Office (I think!) but they couldn't help either - or with our Power of Attorney problem.
     
  16. Sheila

    Sheila Registered User

    Oct 23, 2003
    2,259
    West Sussex
    Hi Em, I only found that out when Iwas reading through the probate forms for my MUm's estate after she died. It's a mine field, full of legal jargonese that is supposed to smite us all down at the first fence! I am now trying to sort out what the heck the jargonese is about in discretionary trust wills, another minefield, but apparently worth doing as it can save a hefty inheritance tax bill. You should be OK, as there are four of you tenants in common. If you are joint owners, it is a different story. We are trying to sort ours out now. Love She. XX
     
  17. Sheila

    Sheila Registered User

    Oct 23, 2003
    2,259
    West Sussex
    Em, forgot to add, the guardianship office power ceases on death, another little thing they don't tell you, the probate officer who did the swearing of Mums estate told me that. I get so annoyed at this "us and them bit," why can't things be simple and understandable?? :mad: Love She. XX
     
  18. bjthink

    bjthink Guest

    Hi Em,

    There are two different issues, here. One is the issue regarding Inheritance Tax, and the other is ownership of the house.
    The house is in your names, but you partially purchased it with a 'gift' from your Nan. These 'gifts' are regarded as PETs (Potentially Exempt Transfers) for the purpose of IHT. After 7 years, you won't have to pay any tax on this gift, and it won't be regarded as part of her estate. After 3 years, there's a sliding scale of taxation - ie it will still have to be included in her estate should she die, but there will be less tax to pay the longer she lives.
    IHT is only counted when the value of the gift exceeeds the IHT-free allowance, which is around £263,000.
    If the value of your Nan's 'gift' is less than that amount, there's not a lot to worry about.
    Sometimes there is a suspicion by the state that 'gifts' are made in order to avoid capital being counted towards the cost of Residential Care, but in your case, that wouldn't be so, I shouldn't think, as you are all acting as your Nan's carers, and could easily prove that. For as long as she's lived with you, you and the family have saved the state a lot of money, by looking after her, and you could show that your Nan made this choice as she knew that she needed care, and believed this to be the most sensible way to provide herself with that care.
    Also, the state allows provision to be made against the estate of someone who may have caring needs, towards tax planning ie avoiding IHT (which is perfectly legal).
    I don't know whether any of this helps, and whether or not it's relevant to your case.
    Why don't you get some advice at the CAB? I don't know whether the 7-year sliding-scale IHT rule also applies to charges which could be levelled against the 'gift' for the purposes of clawing back cash for residential care, so you need to get that clarified.
     
  19. emscub

    emscub Registered User

    Dec 5, 2003
    124
    Bath
    Thankfully, the inheritance tax issue is not one that we'll be bothered by as my Nan's estate was far less than 263k. The CAB will probably be the way forward. I think we were all (and still are actually) a bit demotivated by the mess that the solicitor has put us in and the fact that no one (yet) appears to have a definitive answer to any of it! Keep trying eh.

    We've now managed to get a carer to come in each morning to help with washing and dressing etc (after my Mum has done my Nan's injection and breakfast, as there was no way someone could replace my Mum to do these two 'simple' tasks - only simple for a carer obviously - and before they go to work for the rest of the day too!). Excuse my sarcasm.

    I got up last night to put my Nan back to bed after hearing her wandering around the house thinking it was morning, and this seems to be getting more and more frequent now.

    My sister has also come back from holiday in the Dominican Republic today (after not hearing from her for a week) on crutches and in a plastercast as she fell and has torn ligaments in her foot. On top of this my car had to be MOT'd today and it wasn't good news!! So that's my Mum, Sister and Nan all pretty much immobile now. Only my Dad and me left!
     
  20. Sheila

    Sheila Registered User

    Oct 23, 2003
    2,259
    West Sussex
    Dear Em, try not to worry too much, your Nan seems OK at present, it's three years going on four, get to seven and you won't be liable at all, so don't worry yourself right now. Also, SS took loads of my Mums, so it will be unlikely to even reach any of the levels if she only has her cash left now not the house. Try not to worry, enjoy her while you have her and let tomorrow come when it must! Love She. XX
     

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