Power of Attorneys Etc.

[BeverleyY]

HELP.. please.

Over a year ago I had a POA drawn up. Stupidly, we put off getting it signed/registered etc.. as my mum was still in good health.

My mum passed away, I am now left with my dad who has dementia (he lives with me).

I know what their wishes were with the money (to go to their 4 grandchildren) me and my sister had our inheritance from my parents 5 years ago when they came to live with me (when dad was only a little forgetful). Just 2 weeks before she passed away, my mum wrote cheques to us for the grandchildren (she knew exactly what she was doing and had a physical not mental illness).

Last week my dad signed 2 cheques as he was insistent that the money was useless to him and that it was for the grandchildren (he is still lucid enough to make decisions on money like that).

HOWEVER... I am about to apply for Receivership via the Office of Public Guardian and am extremely worried that they will question the cheques he signed last week.

I also have social services querying the fact that he receives Attendance Allowance.

I am grieving for my mum.. worried about the onward care of my dad, and now am scared that I may have been seen as doing some misdeed with his money :-(

Does anyone know the laws on Receivership etc?? Will they look at past transactions and make a historical decision as to whether he was sane enough to have signed them?

Beverley

 

[jenniferpa]

Dear Beverley

I assume we're talking about an EPA here? With an EPA you can make gifts along the same lines as you would have done before registration. However, I think the issue is really: how much are we talking about? I know that sounds impossibly nosey (and I don't actually want to know the figure) but it's all going to come down to reasonableness. If he's given away 50 % of his assets I think you may have issues.

I would strongly suggest you call the Alzheimer's Society help line and speak to a member of their legal advice staff.

P.S. I'm moving this thread to the main support area

 

[BeverleyY]

He signed away £20,000 in two cheques last week.

So, I that is roughly two thirds of what was in that account.

Now, I am feeling extremely sick.

Beverley

 

[jenniferpa]

I think you need professional legal advice. Look: you have 2 (minimum) issues here: 1) in a sense it's entirely up to him (and you) what he does with the money but in the event you need ANY Help from social services they're going to look at this in an extremely dim way; 2) what the COP are going to say about it. Now the first one isn't an issue if you don't get any help from social services, but the second one - well as I said, professional legal advice would be my thought.

Edited to add - I'm not sure what the current state of play is with regard to oversight by the COP. You'd have to check their web site.

 

[Skye]

Beverley, I don't think there would be a problem with the cheques you mum signed, provided a) she was of sound mind, and b) that she did not give away more than 50% of their joint capital. But you should also be clear that any legacies she left also have to come out of that 50%, otherwise it would would be regarded as you father's gift.

I think you could be in trouble over the cheques your father signed. Is there any chance of repaying the money to him?

Of course, it wouldn't matter if you weren't needing funded SS services, or residential care in the future. But I think it would be regarded as 'deprivation of assets' if you were to claim funding.

As Jennifer says, better check with the Society's legal helpline.

 

[CraigC]

Just supporting Jennifer's fine words here and suggest phoning the alzheimers helpline who may be able to help. It is a grey area and after reading all the literature I have never found any clarity.

The Public Guardianship Office provide an EPA guide but it has conflicting comments. One section says gifts can be reasonable and relative to everything that is owned, but another says they are restrictive and you need to notify them of larger gifts. It is difficult to know what they mean by 'reasonable'; every case is different. If in doubt they suggest calling them on the website, but they will ask for case numbers as they tend to deal with queries 'case by case'.

Can attorneys make gifts from my money?
They can make limited gifts, as long as there is no restriction in the EPA preventing this. They can make seasonal gifts (for example, Christmas presents), or gifts on anniversaries, births or marriages/civil partnership, to people who are related to or connected with you. But the value of the gift must be reasonable compared to everything you own.

Can I make larger gifts?
If you want to make larger gifts of money or property, perhaps as part of planning for Inheritance Tax, you must apply to the Court. The Court needs:
• Form EP3;
• a medical certificate which confirms that the donor is mentally incapable; and
• evidence, including sworn statements.
The Judicial Support Unit at the Court of Protection can give you details of what happens next. If you make a gift greater than the limits set without permission from us or the Court, you may have to pay it back.

You can see what I mean, not very clear. Best to get some legal advice from a solicitor or perhaps some advice from the alzheimers help line.

Please don't lose sleep over it, you are following their wishes, its just a case of getting a little clarity.

Kind Regards
Craig

 

[BeverleyY]

Thank you all for your comments.

I have decided for now, to repay the monies then start the process. Am double confused right now though... because, last year I had an EPA drawn up, but I never registered it. From what I just read on another thread, I can still possibly use that?? Does that sound right? Am so cheesed off I never registered it last year (it cost enough so I have no idea why I never bothered). I guess, I didn't because the last thing that I wanted to even contemplate was my mum dying.

If asked about the movement of the monies out, and then in, I will just say he was insistent (which he was) but that to keep things clear I repaid them.

As for the monies my mum signed (a) yes, she was of totally sound mind and I am sure our GP would verify that. He saw her often enough and knew that mentally my mum was razor sharp and (b) yes, they were less than 50% of the assets at that point, so well within her rights to give that portion of monies away.

Also - I am trying to decided whether to quit my job to care for him full time. If I do that, I will either need to sell my house and downsize (which I think will confuse my dad even more) or, take a monthly sum from my dad's monies.

If I do that, will that be seen as spending his money in his best interest??? Surely it will as a nursing home would cost him far more - hence, I am saving him money.

To be honest, I feel sick at the thought of even taking money - I don't want money for my love and care - but, the reality is to enable my parents to live with us, we mortgaged ourselves to the hilt to buy a big enough house. The only way to keep our heads above water is for me to work full time.

Even taking money from him (i.e. his amount of pension a month) would only replace half my salary, and we would still have to effectively 'down grade' our lifestyle to do so - which, I don't mind. I just don't want any come backs from SS down the line if they ask why his monthly pension was being spent.

This whole thing is going to send me into a breakdown I am sure.

Beverley

 

[jenniferpa]

No, I would say it is entirely consistent to be paid for the care - I would make sure if you do it that you can "prove" the extra costs. I.e. cost of the mortgage, interest payments, extra heating,lighting etc, food, transport, laundry, house maintenance. It all adds up, quite apart from your time. Actually I think if you add up the "real costs" I think you will be surprised.

 

[Skye]

I'm not sure if you've said, but does your dad receive Attendance Allowance? If not, he should apply for it straight away. He would be quite entitled to hand it over you you for caring for him.

There's a six month delay in paying it if accepted, so if you do apply, you should give the date of the start of needing care six months ago. Quite true, I'm sure.

 

[BeverleyY]

I'm not sure if you've said, but does your dad receive Attendance Allowance? If not, he should apply for it straight away. He would be quite entitled to hand it over you you for caring for him.

There's a six month delay in paying it if accepted, so if you do apply, you should give the date of the start of needing care six months ago. Quite true, I'm sure.

Yes he does - and has received it for a couple of years - although his care manager almost suggested that he wasn't entitled as he was able to dress himself still and walk to the shop.

Fine.. but what about the times he is so confused that he is up in the night wondering where the hell he is. Or the times you are fighting to take dirty clothes off him :-(

He can make tea and a sandwich, but that would be the extent of his diet if he lived alone.

I also need to sort his medication because even with dosset boxes from the chemist, he still just pokes any of the holes regardless of day and time of day.

Beverley

 

[pippa darling]

set up a family trust

hi beverley.if your dad can still make a desision and his still capable of signing his name,check out through a solicitor or has my freind who as dementia was told by her building society to protect her assetts to set up a family trust. then after 6 months no one can question how much your dad gives away.it is protected.assets held in a family trust are not means tested and it will protect the nest egg that he wanted the grandchildren to have.

 

[jenniferpa]

Pippa - welcome to Talking Point.

A couple of things - 1) this is quite an old thread and Beverley hasn't posted recently.

2) I wouldn't take a building society's advice over whether this is an acceptable method of dealing with assets. Actually - I would say they were absolutely wrong according to CRAG. If anyone was considering this I would strongly suggest obtaining competent legal advice from a solicitor with experience in this field. The powers of the local authority to decide what is or is not intentional deprivation of assets is quite draconian and rests heavily on intent - if you did something like this when you had reason to believe that you would need residential care you might well find a family trust didn't protect you at all.

Please, please - never take someone's advice over something as important as this without checking the facts.

Edited to add: For further discussion of this issue see this http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...s-when-a-relative-needs-residential-care.html It would seem that quite a lot of people agree with my position on this.

 

[Bookworm]

This thread is a bit of a dig in my ribs - I have will and power of attorney papers laying around somewhere (under piles of other someday tasks) awaiting decisions......so thank you for underlining the need to act