1. Daisy123

    Daisy123 Registered User

    Jul 15, 2007
    village nr Swansea
    Hi, I am new here and hoping someone out there can solve a problem we have.

    My mother has dementia and my husband and myself share the house with her but we can no longer provide the care she needs and we have now reached the point where mum needs a care home. This has been agreed by all concerned. Our problem is that the Social Worker says that I have to get Power of Attorney before mum can go into a home. Have phone a solicitor and he says that mum has to understand and agree to sign this. However, although we have an appointment with the solicitor I feel sure that mum wont sign. Other people concerned with us, don't understand why we need to go down this route.....very confused.

    Can anybody tell me the reason for this?
  2. Skye

    Skye Registered User

    Aug 29, 2006
    SW Scotland
    Hi Daisy, welcome to TP.

    There are members who know more about the legal aspects than I, and I'm sure they will answer your questions when they come online.

    It is certainly true that your mum has to sign, and has to understand what she is signing. She is giving you the power to control her finances, and without her understanding that, it wouldn't be legal.

    I imagine the SW is making sure that someone will be able to pay the NH fees. Has your mum enough money to fund this herself? If so, then I can understand why they want to ensure that the fees will be paid. If not, I don't understand why they are insisting on this. I'm sure someone will be able to help you soon.

    Sorry I can't be more help,
  3. Daisy123

    Daisy123 Registered User

    Jul 15, 2007
    village nr Swansea
    Yes mum will be self funding for a few weeks before she drops down to a level where it will be partly hr funding and partly NHS (I think)
  4. Skye

    Skye Registered User

    Aug 29, 2006
    SW Scotland
    I think that's your answer, Daisy. You will have to have access to her money in order to pay her fees.
  5. Lynne

    Lynne Registered User

    Jun 3, 2005
    Hi Daisy

    Nothing ventured, nothing gained ...

    I think you may find that at an appointment with a solicitor, your Mum may 'behave herself' and be co-operative. My own Mum presents a 'public face' at appointments such as you describe - sometimes I hardly recognise her myself!

    I am sure your solicitor has dealt with such situations before, and will take his time explaining things to Mum so that she can take it in, understand you will be looking after her affairs, paying bills etc. and - hopefully - give the necessary signature.

    Best wishes.
  6. Nebiroth

    Nebiroth Registered User

    Aug 20, 2006
    Your mum has to know and understand what she is signing at the time she is signing. If she doesn't then the power of attorney will be invalid. It sounds as though it might be too late, in which case, you'd have to go through the court of protection instead, which is a longer and more expensive process and it would be up to the court to decide who they grant the power to.

    I don't see why the Social Worker is saying that you need a power of attorney before mum can go into a home. As attorney under Enduring Power of Attorney you would certainly not have powers to "send" mum into a home - only to manage her financial affairs on her behalf.

    I can't imagine that the local authority requires someone like a relative with EPA to access assets to pay for care fees (if mum is paying for any of it).

    First thing, I think, is to get a clarification from the Social Worker as to why she/he is saying you need to do this at all and whether it is a condition for mum going into care, or whether it is just something recommended that will make things easier.
  7. Margarita

    Margarita Registered User

    Feb 17, 2006
    I remember Sue leaving a link that , saying when the person can not sigh it , then can grant a short order . Just can't remember what thread it was in
  8. Brucie

    Brucie Registered User

    Jan 31, 2004
    near London
    it is not clear to me who owns the house...?

    If your mum owns part of the house then it is a complicated situation and EPA is needed if she is to sell her part.

    Just mentioned it because no-one else has. As usual I may be barking up the wrong tree....
  9. sue38

    sue38 Registered User

    Mar 6, 2007
    Wigan, Lancs
    Hi Daisy,

    I think Hazel has it right. The current EPA for England and Wales does not give you any power to make decisions over your Mum's personal or healthcare and is not needed for your mum to go in to a care home... but the care home needs paying for and it would be very much easier for the SS if you could pay for it (or contribute) from your mum's money under an EPA.


    I don't remember posting about a short order before but this is the link to the PGO site page which includes some info on a short order which might be useful.

  10. Margarita

    Margarita Registered User

    Feb 17, 2006
    #10 Margarita, Jul 21, 2007
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2007
    Yes that is the link that you left :) , could not remeber if it was called a short order or not , but it was that link, that it, a receivership application or a short order . If they do not have an EPA
  11. Daisy123

    Daisy123 Registered User

    Jul 15, 2007
    village nr Swansea
    I can see that I don't explain myself properly, it's just that my husband and myself are not thinking properly at the moment.

    There is no problem with the house. When I lost my dad and my mum needed looking after (not as bad as now) we sold both our small properties and bought a bigger place putting the house in all 3 names. Social Workers have assured us that everything is OK there.

    I am not looking for any sort of power to put her into a home, everybody (doctor/psychiatrists/social workers) have already decided on this course of action. Mum adores my husband and hates me. Believes he is her husband and is violent towards me. Goes walkabout big time if we ever leave a door unlocked and lots of other things including really unmentionable behaviour.Oh I know that so many of you can cope with this sort of thing but it is now affecting my own mental health as well.

    Mum has had two spells in respite care which have been fantastic and according to all who saw her there she became a happier person although she wouldn't admit it. (Gosh this makes UD sound good doesn't it)? We hae been to see a Care home and were really impressed, things have changed a lot since the last time we went into one and we are all convinced that it will benefit mum enormousely, which makes me feel a lot better about having considered this option in the first place.

    My parents in law were in care for their last few years and I know that nobody close had POA for them. Yes they did have to sell their house but I always supposed that it was the care home that had control of the monies.
  12. jenniferpa

    jenniferpa Volunteer Moderator

    Jun 27, 2006
    Daisy I think you explained yourself perfectly well. It's just none of us have experienced a situation where we've been told we have to have an EPA as a pre-requisite for admission to a home, so I think we were all speculating about why that might be the case.

    I think you're going to have to go back to the SW and ask why you need and EPA and what happens if you can't get one.

    If you're the bad guy in all this, could your husband take her to the solicitors?
  13. Nell

    Nell Registered User

    Aug 9, 2005
    Can you and your husband approach the subject with your mother as "one less thing for you to worry about" or "something we can do for you so you don't have to worry" or some such comment?? Perhaps if your Mum felt you were doing it for her peace of mind, she could be more cooperative . . . . ?? Good Luck!!
  14. Margaret W

    Margaret W Registered User

    Apr 28, 2007
    North Derbyshire

    We initiated a POA for my mum ages before she showed signs of dementia, but it does only give us control of finances, not of where she lives or what else she does. It is supposed to be "registered" when she is showing signs of being incapable of managing her own financial affairs, which she is, but I believe the law has changed from April 2007, but websites offering advise are still out of date.

    We have recently contacted her bank, utility providers, and the pensions people, and none of them require the POA to be registered. I imagine that we will need to do that if we come to have to sell her house.

    Basically banks and utilities want their monies to be handled properly and don't really mind who does it, as long as it is done, so I suspect that even without a power of attorney, there is a way that things can be negotioated with them.

    Even if your parent has Alzheimers, that doesn't necessarily mean they are incapable of giving you permission to deal with their financial affairs, so get the form and get it filled in now. AD affects people in different ways, so your parent might still be capable of understanding what they are signing for, which is to give you the facility to pay their bills and handle their money.

    Again, new rules came in in April,. and I am not expert on them, but I believe that they mean that the person can still access their own money and make their own decisions, but the attorney also has the same power. There seems to be a new title of "Apointee" which the DWP quoted to me in order for me to claim Attendance Allowance, and I can even have it paid into my own bank account, which I find a bit odd.

    Also in April was launched a Living Power of Attorney which appararently enables you to make other decisions about your parent, such as where they live, what hospital treatment they should have, but I ain't got one of those, so can't advise.

    In short, talk to the people you need to, e.g. bank manager, he will be able to advise on what you need. If no POA, there must be some way of managing a person's affairs when it can't be left to them.

    Much love

  15. Grannie G

    Grannie G Volunteer Moderator

    Apr 3, 2006
    Dear Margaret,

    All the changes you refer to in the above post , re POW , didn`t happen in April, but will now take place in October.
  16. sue38

    sue38 Registered User

    Mar 6, 2007
    Wigan, Lancs

    The changes to EPA were due to come in in April this year but were delayed (mainly because no-one had got round to drafting the forms!). The new date for the changes to be brought in is 1st October.

    There will then be 2 types of Lasting Power of Attorney, one to deal with finances and the other to deal with personal care. I you already have an EPA to deal with finances, you can make either or both of the LPA's come 1st October, provided you have the mental capacity to do so.

    The PGO' website is the best for explaining the changes as well as issues such as registration of existing EPA's.
  17. Roland Crooke

    Roland Crooke Registered User

    Aug 9, 2007
    North Yorkshire

    My mother, with considerable foresight, gave my sister and me POA before she was diagnosed with Alzheimers, and it is a great way of relieving her of money worries.
    But be aware that banks and statutory agencies can be immensely stupid about dealing with you as Attorneys when you actually try to use the power to transfer money or pay fees!

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