Paying fees from proceeds of selling Dad’s house

[love.dad.but..]

From Joyceydaughter:

Some of you might be annoyed that I have spent some of Mum's money, and I know it is her money that she worked hard for all her life, but the repairs are not a luxury. I have taken photographs to prove that my house was in a poor state of repair and I have only had done what was essential.

Mum had a fall at the same time I was undergoing treatment for breast cancer. In retrospect I wish I had put in her the Home for respite while waiting to know if I had to have chemotherapy. I have no siblings by the way. Maybe I could have kept her at home a little longer, though the physios said her dementia was preventing her from being able to walk again. She broke her femur. I didn't expect her to be in the Home for this long, 4.5 years, as she has had dementia since 2008. She has vascular dementia and some Alzheimer's. She will be 90 in December.

The people who pay subsidise the people who don't. In Mum's Home, there are only 10 residents who self-fund, in a Home with 40 rooms, some for married couples.

I am sorry for your circumstances but it is not a case of being annoyed about your mum's funds being spent on your house where she is not residing however desperate your repairs are....as poa for your mum her money should only be spent for her benefit.

 

[Beate]

A lot of people confuse tax laws with deprivation of asset rules. But you really should never have used your Mum's money on your own house. Whether you felt it was a necessity or not, your mother's money should not have paid for it. You have basically abused your attorney rights by taking what you consider your inheritance a little early, and if Social Services ever discover this, they could come down hard on you. It's not us who you need to justify yourself to, but them. Whether other people are self-funded or not has nothing to do with it either.

 

[Havemercy]

A lot of people confuse tax laws with deprivation of asset rules. But you really should never have used your Mum's money on your own house. Whether you felt it was a necessity or not, your mother's money should not have paid for it. You have basically abused your attorney rights by taking what you consider your inheritance a little early, and if Social Services ever discover this, they could come down hard on you. It's not us who you need to justify yourself to, but them. Whether other people are self-funded or not has nothing to do with it either.

I've often wondered how visitors/family of other residents are made aware of who and who is not self-funded in a care facility. Surely thus is confidential information and not to be discussed with outsiders? I know that ( where I work in a hospital) there would be disciplinary action against any staff member who discussed any confidential stuff with anyone other than people who have the right to be consulted.

 

[Rosettastone57]

A lot of people confuse tax laws with deprivation of asset rules. But you really should never have used your Mum's money on your own house. Whether you felt it was a necessity or not, your mother's money should not have paid for it. You have basically abused your attorney rights by taking what you consider your inheritance a little early, and if Social Services ever discover this, they could come down hard on you. It's not us who you need to justify yourself to, but them. Whether other people are self-funded or not has nothing to do with it either.

I agree with Beate on this. I have power of attorney along with my husband over my mother-in-law we have no other family members who are willing to take any responsibility for her. My husband's sister who lives abroad and has taken no interest in her mother at all for the last few years has decided she wants to buy a house abroad. She has been pestering us to get some of her mother's money to assist with the deposit for the house we have told my sister-in-law quite clearly that as attorneys we will not be assisting in anyway in her financial mess by using my mother in law's money.
In years to come my sister-in-law will not be the one who will be talking to Social Services about my mother in law's financial assessment if it comes to that at the moment she is self funding. We keep reasonable records of what we do with my mother in law's finances so in future years if it is examined we can justify everything. I have repairs that need doing in my own house but I certainly wouldn't use my mother in law's money for it

 

[jugglingmum]

I spent some money on my house, eg double glazing, heating and gutter work. I can't quite remember what these total

As Beate said, you've abused your power as an attorney, if you've spent money on yourself as an attorney, and it comes to light, a good criminal lawyer sounds like the next step. This is legally theft.It is your house not your mum's however essential the repairs were.

As for gifts, your mother doesn't have capacity so as others have said, she can't make them in her best interests.

Smallish annual gifts in line with previous gifting provided there are sufficient funds for the forseeable future seem to be within the rules. But certainly not to the level of using the annual inheritance tax £3000 limit.

My mum if she died today would pay inheritance tax but I don't consider she has capacity to gift £3000 much as I would like to. (goodness knows why they didn't spend this money, we lived in poverty as children, I was the one in cheap market stall clothes and she always thought £30 I insisted she spent on my kids for Christmas was too much - kids hated the broken charity shop toys she brought when she visited)

 

[Murper1]

The money situation when looking after a person with dementia is a potential minefield! My overriding feeling, irrespective of the rules, is that a person's money is that person's money to be spent on them and no one else's while they are alive. It happens to also be the law. Even my own relatives have said things like 'the care fees are so expensive and my inheritance is being used up'....grrrrr! But I don't judge Joceydaughter as I'm guessing you felt you were in desperate straits and that your mum would have helped you out if she didn't have dementia. Things must be hard for you. But the law is on the side of the owner of the money, clearly stating the money can only be spent in the interests of the owner of the money. Increasingly, LAs are checking the history of the finances of anyone applying for LA funding so, would it be a good idea to make a clear account of the money taken, the reasons for it, that it has never been your intention to deceive or reduce your mum's assets and, importantly, your intention to pay it back?

 

[lemonjuice]

So basically the minimum amount I’ll be left with one day is the £23000?

No

the minimum amount or lower threshold is £14,250. The upper threshold of £23,250 is when SS should start financial assessments and contributing partly.

and out of that final amount you'd have to factor in funeral expenses.​

thought I was allowed to give £3,000 away each year; I have 3 children and they have had £1,000 each, I think, each year up to last year.

This is alright whilst your mother is fully 'corpus mentis' and does it herself, but I doubt you'd be allowed to do it as PoA. I didn't even give either of her grandchildren a one-off wedding gift, because her savings were getting really close to the limit and I wanted to save every penny. Ditto with repairs to the house. I reckoned I'd just have to take the hit on the price.

 

[Yellowduck]

Joyceydaughter said:

but reckon at least £200,000 has gone to pay care fees in 4.5 years.

This seems quite high.....

In our area homes range from around £500 - £1100 pw. Mum is in a nice home specialising in dementure, costing £730 pw or £36,000 PA. £16000 of this covered by her state pension, attendance allowance, and small private pension, so the debt against her property should only accrue at about £21k PA.

I can only assume you have chosen a very expensive home. Could it be worth looking at a cheaper home? Have you been claiming Attendance allowance?

I do empathise with your situation, and to be honest, if we sold Mum's property and the money was in the bank, and things ever got desperate, then I know what Mum would want me to do. I would worry about the consequences if and when they occurred.

The whole thing is a minefield and to a degree subjective. There is not a list of what a PoA can buy or can not buy.... you just have to be able to justify it if ever challenged.

For example, if Mum regularly came out of the home every fortnight to spend the day at our home, and our boiler broke down and we could not afford to fix it, and by having no heating Mum would be deprived of her visits, then it would be in Mum's interest for the boiler to be fixed.

Another example could be spending £3000 on state of the art electric wheelchair so we could take Mum out. Then after Mum passes, we could sell the wheelchair for £1500. That would be £1500 that may otherwise have been used in home fees.

How about spending £15,000 on a van with a tail lift so we could take Mum out for the day? This would be spending Mum's money for her benefit.

I appreciate some or all of the above may seem absurd but just to illustrate how subjective the PoA process can be.


With regard finding out how many residents are self funded / council funded, I would not consider it to be a breach of data protection to advise how many of each type are resident in the home. It would only be a breach of data protection if each residents circumstances were divulged.

 

[Beate]

Different views or not, what you are talking about is an interpretation of what benefits a donor. Spending their money on repairing someone else's house where the donor doesn't live clearly doesn't.

 

[love.dad.but..]

This seems quite high.....

In our area homes range from around £500 - £1100 pw. Mum is in a nice home specialising in dementure, costing £730 pw or £36,000 PA. £16000 of this covered by her state pension, attendance allowance, and small private pension, so the debt against her property should only accrue at about £21k PA.

I can only assume you have chosen a very expensive home. Could it be worth looking at a cheaper home? Have you been claiming Attendance allowance?

I do empathise with your situation, and to be honest, if we sold Mum's property and the money was in the bank, and things ever got desperate, then I know what Mum would want me to do. I would worry about the consequences if and when they occurred.

The whole thing is a minefield and to a degree subjective. There is not a list of what a PoA can buy or can not buy.... you just have to be able to justify it if ever challenged.

For example, if Mum regularly came out of the home every fortnight to spend the day at our home, and our boiler broke down and we could not afford to fix it, and by having no heating Mum would be deprived of her visits, then it would be in Mum's interest for the boiler to be fixed.

Another example could be spending £3000 on state of the art electric wheelchair so we could take Mum out. Then after Mum passes, we could sell the wheelchair for £1500. That would be £1500 that may otherwise have been used in home fees.

How about spending £15,000 on a van with a tail lift so we could take Mum out for the day? This would be spending Mum's money for her benefit.

I appreciate some or all of the above may seem absurd but just to illustrate how subjective the PoA process can be.


With regard finding out how many residents are self funded / council funded, I would not consider it to be a breach of data protection to advise how many of each type are resident in the home. It would only be a breach of data protection if each residents circumstances were divulged.

Not high where I live. It was not a matter of choosing an expensive NH for dad at £1300pw...he was refused by 2 and became a case of finding one that met his needs medical and dementia and would handle his challenging behaviour so you cannot assume your point is relevant in all circumstances. I had both poa's for dad and not one penny of his money was spent for me...his money for his care.