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Paying a family member for care

Discussion in 'Legal and financial issues' started by sooetie, May 24, 2017.

  1. Shedrech

    Shedrech Volunteer Host

    Dec 15, 2012
    5,548
    Yorkshire
    I too am thoroughly confused by this issue - if a carer and Attorney can organise 'gratuitous care payments' then why are so many worried by 'deliberate deprivation' and 'an Attorney cannot benefit financially from being an Attorney' and the need to be a 'proper employee' and all the other fears that mean some carers pretty bankrupt themselves yet are providing 24 hour care with only carer's Allowance as 'income' - why can't a spouse take such a payment from their spouse, a child from their parent, and all other combinations? - why are so many so worried about taking fair expenses from a parent living with them?
    I do have a recollection of reading through one of those cases and the Deputy (son of the person he held the Deputyship for, and not a trained carer, who had given up his paid employment to be his father's carer) was given retrospective permission by the COP to take the 'gpc' for providing care for his father as 'paying' himself (I think) £1500 a month was cheaper than care home fees - but it was made clear that as Deputy he should have sought permission from the COP BEFORE making the arrangements and organising payments to himself - which implies that permission might not be given in every case, so it's not a 'done deal'

    so sooetie
    maybe this is possible for you - but check with the OPG, in case you are setting you and your mum up for future problems?
    maybe just think carefully about this
    which might well have been the case pre-dementia; it may well be very different a few years after diagnosis - AND it cuts both ways; having a grandparent with dementia moving into your home can be a major challenge
    and
    with dementia, drastic things do happen - self-funding a place in a nursing home is expensive
    why not claim Attendance Allowance if your mum is eligible? she has a right to this benefit and it's not means tested - if she has it and lives alone, she also can apply for a disregard of Council Tax; again not means tested
     
  2. Kevinl

    Kevinl Registered User

    Aug 24, 2013
    4,036
    Salford
    Here's a quote from the website of a leading law firm, I won't mention the name and will confess an interest that a friend of mine works for them, so I pay her for advise in Bacardi and Coke (other brands of white rum and cola based currency are available);
    "where support is provided by family members it is possible to arrange a gratuitous care payment in certain circumstances. This would be relevant where the family member does not intend to enter into an employed role but provides a large degree of support to the client. The are treated as being exempt for tax and national insurances purposes provided an application is made to the HMRC for approval. We can support you with this process and have already supported numerous clients in this regard with great success"
    Make of it what you will, I posted link to case law earlier and the importance of the phrase "gratuitous care payments" as being the correct description not a "wage" or similar wording although it amounts to the same thing.
    I'll invest some more Bacardi pounds and see if I can find out what exactly the "it is possible to arrange a gratuitous care payment in certain circumstances" bit means,, is certain circumstance just a way of saying we won't tell you anymore without getting some money out of you, who knows, I'll risk a hangover to find out.
    K
     
  3. sooetie

    sooetie Registered User

    Jul 31, 2011
    16
    Essex
    Hi Everyone.
    I'm sorry I lost track of this thread and am now catching up.

    Thank you all for your replies and there is some very useful information which I hope will help others in a similar situation.

    So just to explain what I originally meant. I am self employed as a cleaner and have given up a few of my jobs so I have more time for mum. She is quite with it and I'm mainly needed at the moment to make sure she gets to appointments, sort out her medicines and keep an eye on her finances tax etc. Sometimes she just needs me around because she gets what I'd call 'lonely moments' where she feels like she doesn't see anyone - really she's just forgotten and feeling a bit down. She lives in a warden assisted retirement apartment so often sees her neighbours for coffe mornings, scrabble etc.

    I moved near to mum just over a year ago and downsized to get rid of my mortgage so am self sufficient but giving up a few jobs has made me dip into my savings. Fortunately I only have 1 year left of pension contributions to make so that will not be a problem.

    Mum worries about me doing this so is now giving me a small amount weekly which we will call a GCP - Thanks for the info on that Red Dwarf. I have worked out that mum could cover at least 5 years care home fees but that would be only when I couldn't manage myself.

    So I think for now we are fairly organised and I'm hoping mum will enjoy her great grandchildren for a time. 1 born last April and the other is due this April ( younger son and his GF have been busy lol).

    Thanks again for all your support
    X
     
  4. Sweetiepie77

    Sweetiepie77 New member

    Feb 13, 2018
    9
    I am currently in receipt of gratuitous care payments. I recently applied for Cares allowant and was disallowed and they said it was classed as an income. I have been tax cleared and it is not classed as an employment. If possible coukd anyone shed some light onto why I have been disallowed carers benefit.
    Thanks in advance :)
     
  5. Kevinl

    Kevinl Registered User

    Aug 24, 2013
    4,036
    Salford
    Glad to see you got the GCP. I guess it hangs on are you "earning" the GCP in which case it is income in that sense, you are earning it and it is income even though it's not classed as employment you are doing something to get the money so in that sense you are earning it.
    I'd take it to the next level and appeal the decision and see what happens, but I wouldn't be too optimistic as if you stopped doing the caring then the GCP money would stop.
    It is a Gratuitous Payment but conditional on you doing something to deserve it so it is being earned. it's a bit "splitting hairs" so I'd appeal the decision and see what happens.
    K
     
  6. Sweetiepie77

    Sweetiepie77 New member

    Feb 13, 2018
    9
    Hi Kevin, thank you for your reply. I am going to appeal alrite!
    I was told by a benefits adviser initially to apply for it and that I am fully entitled to carers allowance and that their decision is wrong.
    I also know of somebody else who is in the same position as me who is in receipt of both and have been for a couple of years, but I'm in no position to tell the carers allowance department of this. It is just so frustrating as it seems they're not treating everyone the same seemingly. I am 100% going to appeal though as I have nothing to lose.
     
  7. sooetie

    sooetie Registered User

    Jul 31, 2011
    16
    Essex
    Sweetiepie. Is the person you care for getting attendance allowance as I think they have to be in order to get carers allowance
    Good luck
     
  8. Kevinl

    Kevinl Registered User

    Aug 24, 2013
    4,036
    Salford
    There a number of qualifying benefits, AA is just one. I got CA for 3 years, it stopped 2 years ago when my wife went into care. She's still too young now to get AA even now as she's still under 65. AA may be the one most quoted but it is just one of a number of benefits.
    K
     
  9. Sweetiepie77

    Sweetiepie77 New member

    Feb 13, 2018
    9
    Hi Sootie, yes the person I care for is in receipt of a qualifying benefit and CA are aware of this. I think they are just being pedantic to be honest as they know and I know that I am entitled to it but have disallowed it. It's a complex case they said, as I was in receipt of it up until 2 years ago when i suddenly stopped. I have only recently applied for it upon advice from a benefits adviser and requested it to be backdated for the said 2 years and they told me I was disallowed because of the GCP but I know somebody in a similar situation to me who gets it. Even the benefits adviser was shocked that they said I was disallowed it because of the GCP, I am awaiting the letter to appeal against their decision.
     
  10. sooetie

    sooetie Registered User

    Jul 31, 2011
    16
    Essex
    Hi Sweetiepie,I'm glad you are appealing and it may be worth you having a look at the links about GCP Kevinl posted. Not sure where I got Red Dwarf from unless he changed his name or I was having a 'moment' lol
     
  11. Sweetiepie77

    Sweetiepie77 New member

    Feb 13, 2018
    9
    Hi Sootie, what do you mean Red Dwarf? Haha.
    Are the links attatched to this thread?
     
  12. sooetie

    sooetie Registered User

    Jul 31, 2011
    16
    Essex
    Red Dwarf was posting but now he seems to be Kevinl. The links are earlier in this thread ans will be very useful in your appeal
     
  13. jenniferpa

    jenniferpa Volunteer Moderator

    Jun 27, 2006
    38,876

    Uh no. Kevinl has always been kevinl
     
  14. Sweetiepie77

    Sweetiepie77 New member

    Feb 13, 2018
    9
    Ooohhh I get what you mean now haha.

    Oh I most definitely am going to appeal. As said previously, I am only waiting on the letter to arrive. I understand the appeal process can take quite a long time, but im curious to see the outcome.
     
  15. sooetie

    sooetie Registered User

    Jul 31, 2011
    16
    Essex
    So who is Red Dwarf
     
  16. Sweetiepie77

    Sweetiepie77 New member

    Feb 13, 2018
    9
    Hi Ludlow, can you get CA whilst in receipt of GCP as I applied for CA and was disallowed because of my GCP.
     
  17. jenniferpa

    jenniferpa Volunteer Moderator

    Jun 27, 2006
    38,876
    No, but just because it's not taxable doesn't mean it's not income. Obviously you should appeal, but I have read elsewhere that in situations where GP has been granted retrospectively, previously paid allowances have had to be repaid on the basis that you can't get paid twice for doing the same thing.

    It doesn't prove anything of course.
     
  18. jenniferpa

    jenniferpa Volunteer Moderator

    Jun 27, 2006
    38,876
    I'm guessing your autocorrect came up with that: no one with that name posted in this thread.
     
  19. Sweetiepie77

    Sweetiepie77 New member

    Feb 13, 2018
    9
    Thanks jenniferpa.

    I know someone in a very similar situation though who gets CA and GCP so don't understand why its seemingly one rule for one and another rule for another.
    I am going to go ahead and appeal anyway as ive nothing to lose.
     
  20. jenniferpa

    jenniferpa Volunteer Moderator

    Jun 27, 2006
    38,876
    I'm wondering if they had the carers allowance first, then got the GCP. It wouldn't be the first time something slipped through the cracks and I doubt it will be the last.

    I agree with you about the appeal. Apart from anything else, being credited with ni contributions would be worth it, even if you didn't get a penny but we're designated as having an underlying entilement.
     

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