Paying a family member for care

[sooetie]

I'm a bit confused about this.

I currently work and have recently moved to 200yds from Mum so I am on hand for the future. Mum has recently been diagnosed with early stage Alzheimers and is fairly competent. We did LPoA for both H&W and Financial a few years ago. At the time we discussed wether she wanted to move in with me and my sons or stay where she is in a warden assisted flat. She preferred to stay where she was and I downsized.

So the idea was that I would be Mum's carer when it was needed and if necessary I would stay at hers or move her to mine. If I had to give up work Mum's pensions would easily cover both of our expenses and she would be happy living with the family.

So having read a lot of threads on here it doesn't seem that I, as I have LPoA can do this as I would effectively be paying myself, even though we are not claiming anything from the state. I would think Mum will be totally self financing her care unless something drastic happens.

Although I have a brother he hasn;t been seen for 20 years and does not figure in Mum's life. Her only other relatives are my 2 sons.

So are we in a situation where we can do what we planned or do you think the state will butt in and mess it all up?

I'd really appreciate views on this.

Thanks

 

[LadyA]

I'm afraid I've no idea. I just wanted to bump your query up. In theory, I suppose, as long as you kept very strict records, you could do it, but I really don't know. There may be something legal preventing it.

 

[Selinacroft]

Hi Sooetie
Dad is self funding and I have never paid myself for all the 9 years of care I have given until recently. Dad needed 8 carers a day upon recent discharge and this was rapidly eating into savings. I have been able to cut right back on care as dad has improved but it was a wake up call how quickly funds can disappear. Now I pay myself a token amount for each night time care I provide and each personal care cleaning up B/Ms. Write it down and record what I do -just in case we ever get down below the funding threshold.
I don't hold POA (which I did used to find bothered me but am now coming round to thinking is actualy easier)

 

[marionq]

If she moved in with you and there was no dramatic increase in her expenditure then I see no problem. If she is paying rent and utilities in her present flat then she would be paying them to you along with other expenses eg food, entertainment etc. You could also claim carers Allwance of £60.10.

I think there would only be an issue if large holes appeared in her bank balance.

 

[lemonjuice]

I'm afraid I've no idea of any 'legalities' involved, but I know I asked if my mother's AA could be put towards her luncheon club and meal deliveries.
Could you 'assign' the AA' towards her care and just use that to 'pay' yourself? Keeping strict records of course.

 

[arielsmelody]

I think most of the discussion about family members being paid for care is when the LA is likely to get involved - obviously, they don't want large sums of money mysteriously disappearing to pay for family 'care'. But if you think your mum will be self-funding, then they aren't going to get involved. So as long as your mum has sufficient income of her own, and you keep things at a sensible level, it shouldn't cause a problem. Certainly your mum can pay her share of household bills and any additional costs.

But it's a big step to give up work and rely on income from caring - when your mum eventually sadly passes away, you will find that you are older, you've been out of the work place for several years, and your pensions and savings will have taken a big hit.

Edited to say - if your mum does pay you for care, she will be employing you - have a look on disability websites for information about employing a personal assistant.

 

[Saffie]

Hi Sooetie
Dad is self funding and I have never paid myself for all the 9 years of care I have given until recently. Dad needed 8 carers a day upon recent discharge and this was rapidly eating into savings. I have been able to cut right back on care as dad has improved but it was a wake up call how quickly funds can disappear. Now I pay myself a token amount for each night time care I provide and each personal care cleaning up B/Ms. Write it down and record what I do -just in case we ever get down below the funding threshold.
I don't hold POA (which I did used to find bothered me but am now coming round to thinking is actualy easier)

How are you able to manage your father's finances without having power of attourney?
Does anyone have it?

 

[welshdragon58]

I don't know the legal situation - but could you charge her 'rent' ?

Are you the beneficiary of her will - or is your brother included in that ?

 

[Pete R]

If I had to give up work Mum's pensions would easily cover both of our expenses and she would be happy living with the family.

There is nothing wrong as PoA with paying yourself from your Mum's money to be her carer. Although legally she will become your employer and you will both have to conform to all the associated employment law, tax & NI which can be troublesome.

Just paying yourself expenses associated with her care would be fine and a lot less trouble.

It's up to you if you claim AA for your Mum and Carers Allowance for yourself but it will all help to keep the LA getting involved with funding.

 

[marionq]

I'm no expert in these matters but I would hope that if you are her carer and claim carers allowance then your National Insurance contribution would be paid for you which is important towards your state pension someday.

 

[Selinacroft]

How are you able to manage your father's finances without having power of attourney?
Does anyone have it?

Third party access- Dad still has capacity

 

[Saffie]

Third party access- Dad still has capacity

That's fine - only up to a point.

 

[Selinacroft]

I will cross that point when I get to it

 

[canary]

I will cross that point when I get to it

No, seriously - you have to cross that point before you get to it. If you leave it until he has lost capacity then you have to go down the court of protection route.
Been there - worn the T-shirt. Much better to get POA.

 

[Saffie]

I agree totally with Canary which is why I asked the question.

 

[Selinacroft]

Tried - been there- failed - Third Pty is all he will agree to so until the point arises that is it .
The irony is that he is scared of losing the house.

 

[Ludlow]

Hi Sooetie,
I'm in a similar position as you. I have moved my mum in with me and given up work to look after her. The way I do it is that she pays me a monthly amount which is half of the household and general living expenses - board and lodging costs. Then if there are any extra costs for things that are specifically for her then they come out of her money too.
I don't know if this is entirely within the letter of the law but I really can't see why it would not be. I am using mum's money for her benefit to provide a home and care for her. We would get through her money far more quickly if we had to pay official carers for her all the time (£23/hour round here!) I am fortunate in that my sisters fully support this approach, and while mum is not a drain on the Local Authority they will never know or question it. I do keep accounts of my household expenses so that I could prove that we are not living extravagently if it ever arose.
Do take on board people's comments about the effect of giving up your job - loss of income, difficulty of getting back into work should you want/need to later, loss of pension later on, severe reduction of your social life etc etc, but if you are sure you want to do it, then I would say go for it. Do make sure that you get Carers' Allowance though (depends on your mum having Attendance Allowance) or Carers' Credit so that your State pension contributions are credited to you whilst you are caring.

 

[User]

So the idea was that I would be Mum's carer when it was needed and if necessary I would stay at hers or move her to mine. If I had to give up work Mum's pensions would easily cover both of our expenses and she would be happy living with the family.

So having read a lot of threads on here it doesn't seem that I, as I have LPoA can do this as I would effectively be paying myself, even though we are not claiming anything from the state. I would think Mum will be totally self financing her care unless something drastic happens.

Your duty is to act in Mum's best interests and take reasonable care when making decisions on her behalf, which you should help her make - if possible - rather than making decisions for her. You should be fair and do what you think she wants or would want. If you pay yourself for doing a job that you would otherwise pay someone else for, I cannot see the problem. If you were, for instance, to pay yourself excessively, then that would be a problem, but you have not indicated that you envisage doing that.

You will have to do some extra work if she's actually going to employ you.

 

[Kevinl]

In a word, yes, you can take a "wage" for doing the job, there's a link below to the OPG factsheet on what is technically called a "gratuitous care payments". (it's a pdf so you may have to download it).
It comes as a result of case like "Citation:[2015] EWCOP 29" and "HC, Re [2015] EWCOP 29 (23 April 2015)" and has been tested in court by the COP (second link).
You don't need to be an employee of the person and the inland revenue recognise the situation and it is tax exempt.
If you google the phrase "gratuitous care payments" then you'll find any number of explanations and information.
There are figures quoted as a reasonable amount, in the EWCOP 29 case Judge Lush decided that was £1,500 per month.
Knowing the correct phrase to look will give you the big picture.
K

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/public-guardian-practice-note-family-care-payments

http://www.courtofprotectionhub.uk/cases/december-07th-2015

 

[Ludlow]

Thanks Kevinl - that is really useful info. I wonder why it is not more widely known. I asked this very question about payment to a family member on a Financial Q&A on this site a few months ago but got no proper answer. Don't think I'll be getting £1500/month as mum's income won't cover that, but nice to know that I don't have to feel worried about what I am getting from her.