Hello, sorry folks it has been so long since I lasted posted on this site. My mum keeps losing her bank card or forgetting her pin number. The bank have cancelled many of her card, issue and sent new ones and new pin numbers. It has reached the situation where we have give her money for shopping as she is finding it difficult to use the bank card now. I don't have yet LPA, so I am having to give her cash out of my own money weekly. Four months ago she agreed to let me and my partner to act as her LPA. We went to the solicitors and signed the paperwork. We received official confirmation from the Court of Protection that she agreed to let us be her LPA but we hit another brick wall. The solicitor contacted me to say that my mother rang the reception at the law firm saying she doesn't remember meeting the solicitors and agreeing to LPA. She told them that she wasn't going to pay for the fees. So the Solicitors had to sent the papers back to their head office to put in their archives until the invoice was paid. So I paid the invoice and then we hit another brick wall. The solicitor rang us to say that my mother need to be assessed again by her doctor to determined whether she has mental capacity or not. We received a letter from them saying that my mother will let us act as her LPA if her doctor assessed her as not having mental capacity. Last week she went to her doctor to be assessed but we don't what the outcome of the Assessment. At her doctors, we would have to fill in a form and pay the fee of £20 for a copy of a letter. To top it off 2 weeks ago she went in A&E complaining of pains in her arms and the doctor found a lump in her chest, urged her to get it check. This week coming she is having an mammogram but there is no way of knowing what the diagnosis will be as I do not have yet LPA. So if the doctor has assessed her having mental capacity, it will be very difficult to help her with her finances and get information about her health. Me and my Partner are feeling very frustrated as we keep coming up against a brick wall. We try and help my mum as much we can. She has daily Carers who visited twice a day. I am very worried about whether the lump in her breast will be positive and whether she will up to having treatment for it. She is getting more forgetful now. Very depressed and teary. What is the best approach when she may have the treatment. Very worried.
Our hands are tied- LPA
- Thread starter FoxMulder
- Start date
I must admit that I don't know how a LPA is set up but it all sounds a little odd.
If the doctor says that your mum doesn't have mental capacity then she cannot authorise you to act as POA. If there is an LPA document in place then surely it cannot be rescinded by someone who doesn't have mental capacity. Once mental capacity is lost then I assume the LPA would come into force, that's the point of it....isn't it?
Obviously someone with mental capacity can change their mind about the LPA. That's where it gets tricky because a solicitor/doctor may 'feel' that someone has capacity but a family member would know them better and can see the odd - out of character - decisions they make.
You would have thought that the solicitor - knowing that an LPA has been set up - would think it odd behaviour when a client refutes any knowledge of signing the LPA and refuses to pay. I would have thought the solicitor would simply want confirmation by a doctor of loss of capacity and then they would allow you to register the LPA with the OPG (again I don't know the processes involved).
Regarding the health scare....would you be able to attend the doctor/ hospital appointments. It would probably take up a lot of time and may not be possible (it would depend on how close you live to her). As a family member you would be included in the consultation (unless your mother expressly objected).
It does sound like she is a very strong willed lady, which may make most advice irrelevant.
Sometimes you just have to say 'I'm next of kin' and mum has dementia....that sometimes opens a lot of doors. Hospitals especially understand the difficulties and will bend the rules a little. After all it is in you mothers interests that you know what is going on and are able to support her.
It does sound like she is a very strong willed lady, which may make most advice irrelevant.
Sometimes you just have to say 'I'm next of kin' and mum has dementia....that sometimes opens a lot of doors. Hospitals especially understand the difficulties and will bend the rules a little. After all it is in you mothers interests that you know what is going on and are able to support her.
I'm assuming that when the LPA was drawn up (and is it both or just for finances?) a clause was put into it to the effect that the LPA wither couldn't be used and/or registered unless your mother was deemed to have lost capacity. Is my assumption correct?
Which LPA are we talking about? The finance one strictly only deals with that, it can be used while the donor has capacity but only if they agree to it. To this end, there is usually a paragraph in the LPA document, so check it. You can't add a special condition to an LPA once it's registered with the OPG but I guess while the donor has capacity, they can always decide they want to deal with things themselves.
A health & welfare LPA can only be used once the donor has lost capacity. That's the one you would need for dealing with doctors and medical decisions, however, I usually find that they will give certain information to next of kin. I certainly have never had to produce the health LPA yet, though I mention now and then that I have it. But yes, capacity has to be lost first, there is no way round it.
A health & welfare LPA can only be used once the donor has lost capacity. That's the one you would need for dealing with doctors and medical decisions, however, I usually find that they will give certain information to next of kin. I certainly have never had to produce the health LPA yet, though I mention now and then that I have it. But yes, capacity has to be lost first, there is no way round it.
A person is judged to have capacity to sign a POA so long as they understand and agree with what they are signing at the time of signing - it doesnt matter if they forget about 5 mins later, its still legal.
Did your mum have a clause inserted to say that the financial POA could only come into effect once she had lost capacity? If not then as soon as the POA has been registered you are good to go. You can only use Health and Welfare POA once capacity has been lost, but with the finance one you can use it at any time - unless there is that clause.
Did your mum have a clause inserted to say that the financial POA could only come into effect once she had lost capacity? If not then as soon as the POA has been registered you are good to go. You can only use Health and Welfare POA once capacity has been lost, but with the finance one you can use it at any time - unless there is that clause.
You all signed the papers at the solicitors office.
You've received confirmation from the OPG office that they had received the paperwork.
The solicitor would not release the Registered Power of Attorney documents until they were paid, which you did.
Is the solicitor an Attorney for your mother?
Extra checks might be needed if they are.
If not then how the LPA is used is none of their business!
You present the LPA to the doctors, who will decide whether or not capacity is present, and whether or not to discuss her medical condition with you.
The financial LPA is presented to the bank, who will go through their procedures, to get the named PoA on the accounts.
The actual Lasting Power of Attorney document, is the forms you signed at the solicitors, returned from the OPG with "Validated" perforated at the bottom of each page.
DO NOT lose them, allow them to be copied. But you always keep the originals.
Bod
Thanks to those who replied to my posts.
The three of us (my mother, my partner and me) attended the solicitors which my mother agreed that me and my partner would act as her LPA in fiancé and health and welfare . She signed the paperwork and after waiting 3 weeks we received official confirmation that we could act as LPA but when my mother received the invoice and letter of confirmation, she rang the reception at the solicitors to tell them she did not remember signing the form and refused to pay the invoice. So the solicitors had no choice to send the papers she signed in the archives until the invoice was paid. After I paid off the invoice for her, the solicitors rang us to say they had put the documents in Archives in their head office in another county and advised us she should be assessed again by her GP to determine whether she has mental capacity. I suspect she told the solicitor when agreeing to letting us act as LPA that she will only allow us if the doctor can determined whether she has no mental capacity. If she is deemed as having some mental capacity then we can cannot act as her LPA. We are waiting to hear confirmation from her GP. If she has some mental capacity, it will makes everything difficult for us in trying to help her. Her short-term memory is getting worse. As being the sole breadwinner I cannot afford to keep giving her my money as I don't have yet LPA to access her bank account or have information about her health history when she goes to the hospital. 8 times the ambulance have been called when she complained of pains in her chest and went to A&E. I was unable to give doctors there her full medical history. She keeps forgetting times of appointments and the hospital or doctors wont give us information unless we have LPA. Luckily the Carers and the Care Organisation have been very supportive but it have been putting a lot of pressure on both of us. Last month it was so bad we could not relax in the evening as there would be a phone call from the Carers saying my mothers wasn't answering the door, or that she have been taken into A&E, She has lost her bank card or her keys. It has got to the point now where she doesn't understand she can't remember why she keeps forgetting things and unable to rationalize her health concerns. She talks to strangers and bought 1 person to her flat but could not remember her name. We tried to give her independence with the aid of carers. I feel she slowly disappearing from me. She is not the mother I once knew and it is heartbreaking. Sorry for long post.
The three of us (my mother, my partner and me) attended the solicitors which my mother agreed that me and my partner would act as her LPA in fiancé and health and welfare . She signed the paperwork and after waiting 3 weeks we received official confirmation that we could act as LPA but when my mother received the invoice and letter of confirmation, she rang the reception at the solicitors to tell them she did not remember signing the form and refused to pay the invoice. So the solicitors had no choice to send the papers she signed in the archives until the invoice was paid. After I paid off the invoice for her, the solicitors rang us to say they had put the documents in Archives in their head office in another county and advised us she should be assessed again by her GP to determine whether she has mental capacity. I suspect she told the solicitor when agreeing to letting us act as LPA that she will only allow us if the doctor can determined whether she has no mental capacity. If she is deemed as having some mental capacity then we can cannot act as her LPA. We are waiting to hear confirmation from her GP. If she has some mental capacity, it will makes everything difficult for us in trying to help her. Her short-term memory is getting worse. As being the sole breadwinner I cannot afford to keep giving her my money as I don't have yet LPA to access her bank account or have information about her health history when she goes to the hospital. 8 times the ambulance have been called when she complained of pains in her chest and went to A&E. I was unable to give doctors there her full medical history. She keeps forgetting times of appointments and the hospital or doctors wont give us information unless we have LPA. Luckily the Carers and the Care Organisation have been very supportive but it have been putting a lot of pressure on both of us. Last month it was so bad we could not relax in the evening as there would be a phone call from the Carers saying my mothers wasn't answering the door, or that she have been taken into A&E, She has lost her bank card or her keys. It has got to the point now where she doesn't understand she can't remember why she keeps forgetting things and unable to rationalize her health concerns. She talks to strangers and bought 1 person to her flat but could not remember her name. We tried to give her independence with the aid of carers. I feel she slowly disappearing from me. She is not the mother I once knew and it is heartbreaking. Sorry for long post.
Sorry, let me recap because I'm still confused. You went to a solicitor to set up the LPA. They then sent her a bill and when she rang up to protest they got concerned about her mental capacity and asked for her to be assessed again. What they don't seem to have done is sent off the LPA to be registered with the OPG, instead they archived it somewhere? That's completely ridiculous. If they were happy with her mental capacity at the point of signing they should have sent it off to be registered. They should know that all that matters is that she understood in the moment what she is signing. Her capacity three weeks later is irrelevant - she signed the document, so now it should be sent off for registration, no ifs or buts. You can worry about mental capacity when it's registered, which will take many weeks anyway, but if it was signed already and the solicitor had no objection at the time, he has no business asking for capacity tests afterwards.
You say you have received 'official confirmation that you can act as LPA'. Was this from the OPG? If so, surely the LPA has been registered with them and, as Beate says, the solicitor should not need to have further involvement once the bill has been paid.
Could it be that the solicitor is asking for a capacity assessment because he/she thinks your mum wants to revoke the LPA and she can only do so if she has capacity?
Could it be that the solicitor is asking for a capacity assessment because he/she thinks your mum wants to revoke the LPA and she can only do so if she has capacity?
I don't really understand how a LPA works, but in this case it seems:
1) The LPA has been registered with the OPG because "..... after waiting 3 weeks we received official confirmation that we could act as LPA"
2) The solicitor seems to be waiting for a diagnosis of mental incapacity from a doctor before releasing the LPA document because "....I suspect she told the solicitor when agreeing to letting us act as LPA that she will only allow us if the doctor can determined whether she has no mental capacity."
It doesn't seem that the mother is revoking the LPA (although it is a possibility I suppose), more likely the solicitor is simply following the instruction that the LPA is only to be used when mental capacity is lost (which is a tricky thing to determine & presumably can come & go).
I wonder whether the Office of Public Guardians may have some advice? They will, at least, know whether the POA has actually been registered or not. I had to contact them for advice over my mums deputyship and always found them helpful.
https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/office-of-the-public-guardian
https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/office-of-the-public-guardian
Beate, I wonder what the official confirmation would be then?
I'm a little confused here - mostly because I don't know the LPA process. With an EPA you register the EPA with the OPG once mental capacity has been lost......LPA must be different. I can only assume that the LPA can be registered immediately it is signed but because the 'Do Not use until mental capacity' box was ticked it went back to the solicitor to be archived until mental incapacity had been proven.
Which is the limbo that FoxMulder is in. They need the LPA to access medical information about their loved one and also financial access to protect them but everything seems to depend on what a doctor says.
Is mental incapacity someone who makes bad decisions.....'investing' large sums of money in Nigerian diamond mines (something even savvy people have done btw) or is it someone who cannot do the simplest task?
The LPA can and should be registered immediately - putting it into archive makes no sense whatsoever. Yes there might be a clause about capacity in it, but that's about using it, not registering it. Frankly, I don't understand the three weeks delay either - when you register an LPA there is a period of 4 weeks wait for any persons to be told to object, but that's after it's been sent off for registration, not before. Frankly, I more and more come to the conclusion that involving a solicitor in the process is often more hindrance than help!
It is all a bit confusing, when I read "She signed the paperwork and after waiting 3 weeks we received official confirmation that we could act as LPA but when my mother received the invoice and letter of confirmation, she rang the reception at the solicitors to tell them she did not remember signing the form and refused to pay the invoice. So the solicitors had no choice to send the papers she signed in the archives until the invoice was paid. After I paid off the invoice for her, the solicitors rang us to say they had put the documents in Archives in their head office in another county and advised us she should be assessed again by her GP to determine whether she has mental capacity." I just don't get it, you have "official confirmation" to be an LPA, but the papers have been archived in another county and your mother can't remember signing them so the solicitors want you to go to the GP! how does that all work?
If there is a clause in the LPA which says it can't be used until a doctor says she lacks capacity the you have to do that before it can be used but that conflicts with you being told you getting official confirmation that you could act as an LPA unless it was subject to that condition, in which case the official confirmation was that you had an LPA subject to whatever clauses were written into it, very confused
K
If there is a clause in the LPA which says it can't be used until a doctor says she lacks capacity the you have to do that before it can be used but that conflicts with you being told you getting official confirmation that you could act as an LPA unless it was subject to that condition, in which case the official confirmation was that you had an LPA subject to whatever clauses were written into it, very confused
K
hi Fox Mulder
from the responses, members are not clear on exactly what has occurred and it's tricky sometimes to try to explain in writing - so I'd suggest you call the AS helpline to have a talk with one of the operators who have a lot of knowledge on legal issues - that way the operator can ask questions and you can respond in real time
from the responses, members are not clear on exactly what has occurred and it's tricky sometimes to try to explain in writing - so I'd suggest you call the AS helpline to have a talk with one of the operators who have a lot of knowledge on legal issues - that way the operator can ask questions and you can respond in real time
best wishes
Sorry for the confusion
Thanks to everyone who have replied to my second post, sorry for the confusion but me and my partner are just as confused and frustrated by all the legal aspects of LPA. Please don't be harsh with me.
I will be asking my mother's doctor for a copy of a letter to my mother about the outcome of his second assessment with her for mental capacity. If he concludes that she has mental capacity, then I will know where we stand with LPA. If she is deemed to have mental capacity it makes things a lot harder in trying to help my mother with her finances and health matters.
If we don't have LPA, how can we help my mother with her financial and health matters?
Thanks to everyone who have replied to my second post, sorry for the confusion but me and my partner are just as confused and frustrated by all the legal aspects of LPA. Please don't be harsh with me.
I will be asking my mother's doctor for a copy of a letter to my mother about the outcome of his second assessment with her for mental capacity. If he concludes that she has mental capacity, then I will know where we stand with LPA. If she is deemed to have mental capacity it makes things a lot harder in trying to help my mother with her finances and health matters.
If we don't have LPA, how can we help my mother with her financial and health matters?
