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OPG visit did not go too well!

happyhacker

Registered User
Aug 11, 2014
28
Last time I did a financial report the OPG visitor gave every thing the OK. No problems at all. This time it was suggested birthday presents to close relatives was maybe too much. These payments have not changed since the last time. We are only talking about say £40 per grandchild or GGrandchild, Son In Law even me! I said I have no intention of changing it!. ? it all seems a bit picky to me.

Does a one have this sort of experience?

Thanks for your time.
 

Sirena

Registered User
Feb 27, 2018
2,243
I'm always in two minds about this. I have LPA, so I don't have to justify it to the OPG - just to myself.

In the earlier days of using my LPA I never gave myself a Christmas/birthday present from my mother. But when I joined these forums I saw that it was okay to do so and I began giving myself a present worth around £25-£30. But I am not sure I'll continue doing that. (She doesn't have any other relatives to buy for.)

If my mother actually asked me to buy myself something, that would be fine. But she no longer has any idea it's my birthday, or Christmas, and I'm not sure she always even knows who I am. So why am I buying myself a present from her?

I think how you feel about it depends on your relationship with the PWD. I am not surprised the OPG mentioned it, because if you're spending £40 on multiple relatives twice a year, it's quite a chunk of money coming out of the account. Did they indicate it would be a problem if you kept doing it, or was it just an observation?
 

Wildflowerlady

Registered User
Sep 30, 2019
120
Hi @happyhacker

Sister and I are both Attorneys for our dad and to be honest we don't use dads LPA to buy gifts for relatives as dad doesn't recall birthdays etc any longer.
Family has accepted that dad just can't remember that there was a time he would along with our late mother treat family members for Christmas Birthdays etc.
I must admit I did feel a little sad that dad didn't realize it was my 60th birthday last year a card would have been nice but this is the way things are now 😢.

I do dads shopping as he still lives at home with Carers coming in daily and keep all his shopping receipts in case they are requested ?
Dad doesn't have a lot of money a little bit in savings and his State and Post Office Pensions so we are pretty careful with his expenditure but his needs are met dad rarely actually asks for anything and equally doesn't volunteer to give anything away :) .
Dad pays towards his care visits but not the whole amount.

Can I ask out of curiosity how often do the OPG require a Financial report as we only registered dads LPA with the bank about a year ago.
I have used the POA Bank Card to do dads shopping for just a few months now or is a Financial Report only needed if someone is appointed a Deputy for someones financial affairs?
I suppose regarding gifts it would very much depend on someones financial circumstances and if the gifts of money etc would compromise the PWD future care needs.
 

Wildflowerlady

Registered User
Sep 30, 2019
120
I'm always in two minds about this. I have LPA, so I don't have to justify it to the OPG - just to myself.

In the earlier days of using my LPA I never gave myself a Christmas/birthday present from my mother. But when I joined these forums I saw that it was okay to do so and I began giving myself a present worth around £25-£30. But I am not sure I'll continue doing that. (She doesn't have any other relatives to buy for.)

If my mother actually asked me to buy myself something, that would be fine. But she no longer has any idea it's my birthday, or Christmas, and I'm not sure she always even knows who I am. So why am I buying myself a present from her?

I think how you feel about it depends on your relationship with the PWD. I am not surprised the OPG mentioned it, because if you're spending £40 on multiple relatives twice a year, it's quite a chunk of money coming out of the account. Did they indicate it would be a problem if you kept doing it, or was it just an observation?
Hi @Sirena
Saw your reply which was obviously posted whilst I was still compiling mine ( between other things ). Clearly we have similar views :D
 

Normaleila

Registered User
Jun 4, 2016
758
I have financial LPA for my PWD. Her care costs £60k per annum. I buy no presents on her behalf. I write a cheque every Christmas for the staff fund at her care home - just £50 to show they are appreciated.
 

Beate

Registered User
May 21, 2014
12,014
London
Hi @happyhacker

Sister and I are both Attorneys for our dad and to be honest we don't use dads LPA to buy gifts for relatives as dad doesn't recall birthdays etc any longer.
Family has accepted that dad just can't remember that there was a time he would along with our late mother treat family members for Christmas Birthdays etc.
I must admit I did feel a little sad that dad didn't realize it was my 60th birthday last year a card would have been nice but this is the way things are now 😢.

I do dads shopping as he still lives at home with Carers coming in daily and keep all his shopping receipts in case they are requested ?
Dad doesn't have a lot of money a little bit in savings and his State and Post Office Pensions so we are pretty careful with his expenditure but his needs are met dad rarely actually asks for anything and equally doesn't volunteer to give anything away :) .
Dad pays towards his care visits but not the whole amount.

Can I ask out of curiosity how often do the OPG require a Financial report as we only registered dads LPA with the bank about a year ago.
I have used the POA Bank Card to do dads shopping for just a few months now or is a Financial Report only needed if someone is appointed a Deputy for someones financial affairs?
I suppose regarding gifts it would very much depend on someones financial circumstances and if the gifts of money etc would compromise the PWD future care needs.
Only deputies need to fill in an annual report, not attorneys like yourself. :)
 

theunknown

Registered User
Apr 17, 2015
431
As deputy for the OPG for my mum I was very wary of spending my mum's money at all, apart from paying the care home fees. It didn't feel right. However, it was pointed out to me that my court order allowed me to pay normal outgoings which included birthday and Christmas gifts. In fact, far from doing the right thing, I was ignoring what my mum would have done if she was still able to. We're a very small family, so no great expense involved, but from then on I made sure the usual people got a monetary gift when it was due. I had a pretty good idea of what my mum would have spent as I was one of the people who got gifts from her. Outside of daughters and grandchildren other people probably did miss out, but I had no idea what she might have gifted to them so I didn't do that.

This type of expenditure was included in my annual deputyship report over the last five years and was never queried. Other expenses which arise as being part and parcel of being a deputy have never been claimed for by me, even though they're justifiable. That's a separate thing. But it became clear to me that not carrying on with spending my mum's money on children's, grandchildren, etc birthdays was actually wrong, because it was her money, to spend as she would have done when she was able to.
 

jugglingmum

Registered User
Jan 5, 2014
5,816
Chester
I have LPA, not deputyship, and have continued to gift monetary birthday presents at a level mum did. Mum is 89, and in sheltered extra care, the gifts come out of her income at the moment. She has enough funding for a significant amount of time in a care home.

From all the advice I have read this is considered acceptable.
 

Lawson58

Registered User
Aug 1, 2014
2,165
Victoria, Australia
I'm always in two minds about this. I have LPA, so I don't have to justify it to the OPG - just to myself.

In the earlier days of using my LPA I never gave myself a Christmas/birthday present from my mother. But when I joined these forums I saw that it was okay to do so and I began giving myself a present worth around £25-£30. But I am not sure I'll continue doing that. (She doesn't have any other relatives to buy for.)

If my mother actually asked me to buy myself something, that would be fine. But she no longer has any idea it's my birthday, or Christmas, and I'm not sure she always even knows who I am. So why am I buying myself a present from her?

I think you deserve a present from your mum, and something a little more expensive than what you have been spending. Please don't stop. There is nothing wrong in taking a small reward for everything you do.

I gave up smoking many years ago on 4th July so every year I buy myself something to remind me of all the money I have saved. My husband had a cardiac arrest on 16th December and I saved his life. He has never thanked me or said anything to indicate that he is appreciative so I buy myself something then, even though it is close to Christmas. I think if he can't/won't give me a little pat on the back, then I'll do it myself.
 

Jessbow

Registered User
Mar 1, 2013
3,044
West Hertfordshire
Last time I did a financial report the OPG visitor gave every thing the OK. No problems at all. This time it was suggested birthday presents to close relatives was maybe too much. These payments have not changed since the last time. We are only talking about say £40 per grandchild or GGrandchild, Son In Law even me! I said I have no intention of changing it!. ? it all seems a bit picky to me.

Does a one have this sort of experience?

Thanks for your time.
Personally I think it depends how many you are doing each year.

If someone had 4 daughters, each daughter has married and has 3 children,

4 dau + 4 s in L + ( 4x3 children) = 20 people. x£40 =£800 pa.
£40 each for christmas and again for birthday £1600 a year on gifts sounds quite a lot

I would drop the grown ups personally, and just gift to the children
 

DesperateofDevon

Registered User
Jul 7, 2019
2,697
Historically if your PWD always gifted an amount for me I feel that has set a presence that is justified. If the final situation changes then there are rules & regulations for that contingency.
As LPA if Mum decides to gift monies & she has deemed to have capacity at that moment in time we are legally bound to honour that.
Honestly from my own personal experience - when Dad was in the care home I bought flowers / cards/presents for Mum from him. As this was what he would have done. I didn’t do this for anyone else.
In my opinion you are enabling your PWD to retain contact with loved ones. This is a duty of care statement in homes / LPA/ social needs assessment by social services

in all reality £20 pounds is a lovely gift
But if the precedence set is higher then I believe that amount is acceptable.

The care homes have no qualms charging £15 pounds for a pedicure ( dad was diabetic & should have had this for free!)
£12 for a hair cut every fortnight ( he had almost no hair !)
Charging for trips & meals out ( meals were already paid for & carers used their own cars for transport & the home back expenses via tax!)
So in reality a gift to a loved one seems a bargain!
sorry 😐
But I feel that way very strongly.
Ps
I make sure my children & husband have birthday gifts from Mum.
As for me well I wrote that off years ago !
This year my Auntie told my Mum it was my birthday - on my birthday as we were visiting etc.
My distraught Aged Mother ( that bit was a total surprise to me/ aunt/ OH!) was adamant that no matter what birthdays, Christmas ( which she detests!)etc were all things she wished to continue recognising & gifting an amount to .
so I am pleased that I have witnesses & that giving a gift still brings her joy! ( though she won’t remember for long but then that brings repeat joy! Every cloud has a silver lining !)
so that’s my experiences & I hope that it helps someone else in this situation.
 

Louise7

Registered User
Mar 25, 2016
2,279
Has the person's capital reduced to a point where the total value of gifts is no longer proportionate?
Yes, that's the key point. Here's a link to the OPG guidance relating to giving gifts. It all depends on whether the gift is considered of 'reasonable' value by the OPG "given the size of the person's estate and their expected future needs". Personally we have reduced the amount given to Mum's grandchildren at Christmas & birthdays a little (£10 less than usual), explaining that she needs the money for her care costs, and they are fine with that:

 

Sirena

Registered User
Feb 27, 2018
2,243
I have financial LPA for my PWD. Her care costs £60k per annum. I buy no presents on her behalf. I write a cheque every Christmas for the staff fund at her care home - just £50 to show they are appreciated.
I had just thought of doing the same thing, wish I'd thought of it for last Christmas. I always buy the staff chocolates at Christmas (with my own money, because they are lovely and I am grateful) but I think I will buy them a gift direct from her next time - assuming she's still with us.
 

Sirena

Registered User
Feb 27, 2018
2,243
@Lawson58 - and others who have said something similar - I agree there is not necessarily anything wrong with taking a gift of the size your PWD would previously have given. But it depends on context - how much money they have, what their relationships are with the family etc.

In my case, I can't see much 'right' with it. My mother has totally lost the entire concept of gifts - it's her birthday this month and I've just taken in her presents (she's in a CH). I no longer wrap them because it's meaningless, last year I realised she doesn't understand the idea, she just looks blankly at the parcels and I have to unwrap them. Now I just put the gifts in her room so the carer can see she has new clothes / toiletries etc. She doesn't know when it's her own birthday, never mind mine!

As I said to Normaleila, next Christmas I'll redirect the money to the CH staff instead - they really do deserve it.
 

DesperateofDevon

Registered User
Jul 7, 2019
2,697
@Lawson58 - and others who have said something similar - I agree there is not necessarily anything wrong with taking a gift of the size your PWD would previously have given. But it depends on context - how much money they have, what their relationships are with the family etc.

In my case, I can't see much 'right' with it. My mother has totally lost the entire concept of gifts - it's her birthday this month and I've just taken in her presents (she's in a CH). I no longer wrap them because it's meaningless, last year I realised she doesn't understand the idea, she just looks blankly at the parcels and I have to unwrap them. Now I just put the gifts in her room so the carer can see she has new clothes / toiletries etc. She doesn't know when it's her own birthday, never mind mine!

As I said to Normaleila, next Christmas I'll redirect the money to the CH staff instead - they really do deserve it.
I had this experience with Dad in November & as I said personal judgement plays a huge part in this decision.
BUT
This really isn’t something carers should be fretting about & yet we still do in our quest to do right by our PWD!
 

canary

Registered User
Feb 25, 2014
12,942
South coast
Has the person's capital reduced to a point where the total value of gifts is no longer proportionate?
I agree that this is the key point. I had deputyship for mum. She used to give the grandchildren quite generous gifts for Christmas and birthdays, but after she moved into a care home (self-funded) I told the grandchildren that their granny's circumstances had changed and she now needed her money for care fees. I still continued to get her to sign cards while she was able, but I did not send monetary gifts from her. Fortunately they all understood.
 

Banjomansmate

Registered User
Jan 13, 2019
1,954
Dorset
I told The Banjoman when it was his daughters’ Birthdays and asked him if he wanted to send them some money and if so, how much? We would discuss the matter and I would transfer money to their accounts. The same at Christmas. I didn’t do anything for myself although I knew he would have bought me some Chanel perfume if his head had been working properly.
 

theunknown

Registered User
Apr 17, 2015
431
I think you deserve a present from your mum, and something a little more expensive than what you have been spending. Please don't stop. There is nothing wrong in taking a small reward for everything you do.

I gave up smoking many years ago on 4th July so every year I buy myself something to remind me of all the money I have saved. My husband had a cardiac arrest on 16th December and I saved his life. He has never thanked me or said anything to indicate that he is appreciative so I buy myself something then, even though it is close to Christmas. I think if he can't/won't give me a little pat on the back, then I'll do it myself.
Good for you, you deserve your pat on the back, however you get it. To save a person's life is something special. I hope that thought stays with you.
 

Jaded'n'faded

Registered User
Jan 23, 2019
801
High Peak
I told The Banjoman when it was his daughters’ Birthdays and asked him if he wanted to send them some money and if so, how much? We would discuss the matter and I would transfer money to their accounts. The same at Christmas. I didn’t do anything for myself although I knew he would have bought me some Chanel perfume if his head had been working properly.
Same with my boyfriend. He doesn't have dementia though 🙄 ;)