occupational pension

[Early riser]

I've read lots of posts about the wife being able to keep 50% of any occupational pension, but how is this actually worked out?
Is it 50% of the gross amount or the net amount?
Is tax paid twice, once by the husband and then again by the wife?
I know one of you wise people will know the answer, so thank you in advance.

 

[Saffie]

I just divide the actual monthly pension by 2 and transfer half to a different account in my own name.The other half remains in the bank account and is paid towards my husband's nursing home fees.

 

[2jays]

I've read lots of posts about the wife being able to keep 50% of any occupational pension, but how is this actually worked out?
Is it 50% of the gross amount or the net amount?
Is tax paid twice, once by the husband and then again by the wife?
I know one of you wise people will know the answer, so thank you in advance.

My pensions advisor (OH) has gone to bed so I shall ask him in the morning.

I have a sneaky suspicion Saffie is right... You get 50% of his pension after he has paid tax.... Then you pay tax on your bit...

Don't you just love the tax system

 

[jenniferpa]

My pensions advisor (OH) has gone to bed so I shall ask him in the morning.

I have a sneaky suspicion Saffie is right... You get 50% of his pension after he has paid tax.... Then you pay tax on your bit...

Don't you just love the tax system

I'm wondering if you meant to write what you wrote? You don't have to pay tax on "your" half if tax has already been paid on the whole thing.

 

[claire43]

We were told my mother was entitled to half of my fathers occupational pension. Now that he has been a CH for a several weeks we recently received an invoice from the LA with a breakdown of my dads income & they have taken all of his occ. pension & his state pension.

Devastating

 

[jenniferpa]

We were told my mother was entitled to half of my fathers occupational pension. Now that he has been a CH for a several weeks we recently received an invoice from the LA with a breakdown of my dads income & they have taken all of his occ. pension & his state pension.

Devastating

Well they are wrong, wrong, wrong. Did I say they were wrong?


Get back on the the LA and refer them to 8.026 of crag which states

Where a resident is in receipt of an occupational pension, personal pension, or payment from a retirement annuity contract and has a spouse, or civil partner, who is not living in the same residential care or nursing home, 50 per cent of the occupational pension, personal pension, or retirement annuity contract payment should be disregarded providing the resident passes 50 per cent on to his spouse or civil partner. If the resident passes less than 50 per cent of any of these payments mentioned above, or none of them, to his spouse or civil partner, for whatever reason, then the disregard should not be applied and the full amount in payment to the resident should be taken into account. The only other time when 50 per cent of any of the payments a married resident or civil partner should cease to be disregarded is on death of the spouse or civil partner, or divorce.

 

[2jays]

I'm wondering if you meant to write what you wrote? You don't have to pay tax on "your" half if tax has already been paid on the whole thing.

Depends....

Shall ask the "expert" (OH) tomorrow.
He having dealt in pensions for over 20 years and ALL it's foibles.

But you could be right. Hope you are.

 

[claire43]

I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that they were legally not allowed to take all of an occupational pension if the spouse was still in the family home.

That is what we believed too. When I had the breakdown of costs from local auth it clearly states they are taking all of my dads income and my mothers entitlement is zero. I hoped they were mistaken but after I made enquiries it seems it not such a black & white area. The sw has asked the finance dept to speak to me but that was almost 2 wks ago & havent heard anything yet.

We now have an invoice asking for almost £2,000 in arrears to be paid. This is without the £75 pw top up fees we have to pay.

Jenniferpa: How I wish it was that simple. No matter what arguments I put up I feel like Im banging my head against a brick wall.

We are now faced with taking dad out of the care home due to financial reasons, bringing him home without a care package - cant afford that either, and claiming a carers allowance which we will use to pay my daughter to sit with him a couple of nights per week. She is already a trained carer & works with elderly people in their own homes. She has agreed to cut her hours at work & we will make up her loss of earnings whilst she looks after my dad as much as possible.

Certainly not ideal but we are out of choices thanks to the stupidity of the care system

 

[Saffie]

It has nothing to do with income tax 2jays. That has ready been paid. A wife is entitled to half the net pension and that is what the LA base their assessment on too. I have the absolute proof of it in a statement from the financial dept of my LA of my husband's contribution towards his nursing home fees for the coming financial year.

 

[jenniferpa]

I don't want to sound pushy (well I do but...) they really cannot do this. They must follow CRAG and it's not optional. 2 weeks may not be so long, particularly with Easter in there, but if they come back and tell you the same thing they you should definitely put in a formal complaint. The truth is, some LAs try it on (not all, by any means) and you need to fight your parent's corner.

If you don't believe me, can I suggest you call the AS help-line as they will be able to confirm what I have said. http://forum.alzheimers.org.uk/faq.php?faq=resources#faq_resources_helpline

 

[Saffie]

Piph, complete self- funders can keep whatever they like. They just have to be able to pay the fees!

 

[jenniferpa]

Claire - I see you're in Wales. There is a separate CRAG for this (and I can't find a newer one than 2012) but that also states

8.023A Where a resident is in receipt of an occupational pension, personal pension, or payment from a retirement annuity contract and has a spouse, or civil partner, who is not living in the same residential care or nursing home, 50 per cent of the occupational pension, personal pension, or retirement annuity contract payment should be disregarded providing the resident passes 50 per cent on to his spouse or civil partner. If the resident passes less than 50 per cent of any of these payments mentioned above, or none of them, to his spouse or civil partner, for whatever reason, then the disregard should not be applied and the full amount in payment to the resident should be taken into account. The only other time when 50 per cent of any of the payments a married resident or civil partner should cease to be disregarded is on death of the spouse or civil partner or divorce.

 

[claire43]

Jenniferpa: I havent completely given up. I am still going to try & put up a fight but this is what the letter from the local auth says:

An assessment of your weekly contribution including a breakdown of how your assessed weekly contributions have been calculated:

Income

State Pension - £136.80 pw
Occ. Pension - £218.93 pw

Total Income - (A) £355.73 pw

Disregards

Personal Expenses Allowance - £25.00 pw
Savings Credit (??) - £5.75 pw
Spouse (1/2 occ pen) - £0.00 pw

Total Disregard (B) - £30.75

Your Weekly Contribution (A) - (B) = £324.98 pw

 

[jenniferpa]

It sounds as if they simply haven't accounted for the 1/2 occupational pension going to the spouse (if what it actually says is Spouse (1/2 occ pen) - £0.00 pw since if they have that line they obviously realise that this is an option).

Do they perhaps think that your father doesn't have a spouse?

Honestly - your mother absolutely should be receiving this 50%. To me, that looks like some one hasn't filled in the right boxes.

It's possible that there is some form you need to fill in for the LA to say that he will be passing 50% of his pension back to your mother.

 

[claire43]

I hope its something as simple as that. We did fill in the form and it was checked by the social worker before we submitted it so dont know why they wouldnt have acknowledged my mother.

I feel a bit stronger now so I am going to try and get to the bottom of things. To be honest when I received this assessment, followed by the invoice demanding payment it nearly broke me and I sort of shut myself off from reality. I spent so much time crying out of desperation, I just felt totally defeated.

Money is tight as it is. Just finding the top up fee every week is a nightmare without all this.

 

[Lindy50]

Hi Claire

Wondered where you'd got to! Good to hear from you

Can I just say that I agree with JenniferPA. Your mother is definitely entitled to 50% of the occupational pension.

If you don't get a positive answer soon, complain to the local authority in writing. It is appalling that you are feeling that you have have to take your father out of his CH on financial grounds. I have got pretty wound up myself trying to fight the system sometimes.....but I feel that this is a case where you shouldn't have to, because it does sound as though someone has made a mistake!!!!

All the best and take care

Lindy xx

 

[claire43]

Thanks Lindy.

I did disappear for a few days. I had to stop myself thinking about it before I had a mini breakdown. I basically stuck my hand in the sand whilst waiting for someone to get in touch with me from either the local auth finance dept or my local councillor.

Today was the first day I have given it any thought and will be back on the case properly tomorrow.

Wish me luck

 

[Lindy50]

I do Wish you luck, that is

Hope you've managed to re-charge your batteries a bit

Lindy xx

 

[jenniferpa]

Claire - the truth is you don't need luck (although I'll wish you that anyway ) - what you need is determination. That's because luck implies that you need the LA to make a judgement call. This isn't the case at all, they are legally required to do this. All you need is to calmly state that they are failing in their legal requirements and you expect them to fix the problem.

You and your family are completely in the right about this and the LA is wrong. It might take a while to fix this I'm afraid but rest assured, it will be fixed.

 

[lin1]

Claire
What a horrid shock for you, and shame on them for putting you through this.

I agree you don't need luck as you have right on your side.
Though I cannot quote chapter and verse, I know Jennifer is right.

If you have Age UK or similar in wales , they may well be able to help you.

Wishing you strength to see you through this.