• Expert Q&A: Rare dementias - Tues 3 March, 3-4pm

    Our next expert Q&A will be on the topic of rare dementias. It will be hosted by Nikki and Seb from Rare Dementia Support. If you have any questions about rare dementias, they will be here to answer them on Tuesday 3 March between 3-4pm.

    You can either post your question >here< or email them to us at talkingpoint@alzheimers.org.uk and we'll be happy to ask them on your behalf.

Occupational pension and care home fees

Pete R

Registered User
Jul 26, 2014
2,044
Staffs
I apologise if I am wrong but I thought that in Wales there is only the £24,000 limit and below this, no further capital is taken towards the cost of care home fees. That is, the £14,250 is n't involved.
If Jikkie is in Wales then yes it is £24,000 this year. Could be even higher next April.

The PEA is also higher at £25.50.
 
Last edited:

esmeralda

Registered User
Nov 27, 2014
3,072
Devon
Thanks a lot Saffie, Scarlett and Pete. I am still a bit bemused but I'm going to print out the relevant replies and keep referring to them. It's such a minefield though and so unfair, can understand your resentment Saffie.

For some time we've been living on one pension so I could save up to do major adaptations (wet room & outside ramp, both of which strongly recommended by OT). Although my husband's occupational pension is tiny we're deemed able to afford to take out a loan to pay for these, which I refuse to do as I couldn't afford the repayments if anything happened to him. At least it's good practice if /when I am on my own.

Good to hear the iron has entered your soul, Chuggs.

So sorry you are facing such difficulties Jikkie, I hope things work out better for you than you fear.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 

nitram

Registered User
Apr 6, 2011
19,739
North Manchester
"Have you asked the LA to increase the PEA?"

"If I knew what that was, I would!"


PEA is Personal Expenses Allowance.

The official guidance under the Care Act 2014 is:-

"43. The purpose of the PEA is to ensure that a person has money to spend as they wish.
It must not be used to cover any aspect of their care and support that have been contracted
for by the local authority and/or assessed as necessary to meet the person’s eligible needs.
This money is for the person to spend as they wish and any pressure from a local authority or
provider to do otherwise is not permitted.
44. There may be some circumstances where it would not be appropriate for the local
authority to leave a person only with the personal expenses allowance after charges. For
example:
(a) Where a person has a dependent child the local authority should consider the needs
of the child in determining how much income a person should be left with after
charges. This applies whether the child is living with the person or not.
436 Care and Support Statutory Guidance
(b) Where a person is paying half their occupational or personal pension or retirement
annuity to a spouse or civil partner who is not living in the same care home, the local
authority must disregard this money. This does not automatically apply to unmarried
couples although the local authority may wish to exercise its discretion in individual
cases.
(c) Where a person is temporarily in a care home and is a member of a couple – whether
married or unmarried – the local authority should disregard any Income Support or
Pension Credit awarded to pay for home commitments and should consider the needs
of the person at home in setting the personal expenses allowance. It should also
consider disregarding other costs related to maintain the couple’s home (see below).
(d) Where a person’s property has been disregarded the local authority should consider
whether the PEA is sufficient to enable the person to meet any resultant costs. For
example, allowances should be made for fixed payments (like mortgages, rent and
Council Tax), building insurance, utility costs (gas, electricity and water, including basic
heating during the winter) and reasonable property maintenance costs.
(e) Where a person has moved to local authority support and has a deferred payment
agreement (DPA) in place, the local authority should ensure the person retains
sufficient resources to maintain and insure the property in line with the disposable
income allowance (DIA)"


P435/436
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/366104/43380_23902777_Care_Act_Book.pdf
 

Pete R

Registered User
Jul 26, 2014
2,044
Staffs
If I knew what that was, I would!
As others have said it is the "pocket money" that you talked about in your post. You can ask the LA to increase this if you are living in a house that was disregarded from the financial assessment. The LA do not have to increase it but no harm in asking.:)
 

Chuggalug

Registered User
Mar 24, 2014
8,007
Norfolk
As others have said it is the "pocket money" that you talked about in your post. You can ask the LA to increase this if you are living in a house that was disregarded from the financial assessment. The LA do not have to increase it but no harm in asking.:)
Every single benefit was in my husband's name so I was advised to apply for my own. All his benefits were taken. We were treated as two single people and he now gets a single man's pension with no other benefits, which were all taken away.

I've often seen comments that any LA should not touch a spouse's income towards their OHs care. In my case, I would have to fork out almost £200, as well as his full pension allowance to cover what they are asking in the latest bill. That just is not affordable, since my own income is not yet finalised. Therefore I will be seeking advice from at least two sources. I am expected to ensure hubby gets his spending money each week. As things currently stand, I won't be left enough to fork out for the fare to get to him that often. And I'd be risking having to move out of my rented property altogether. It's time for me to fight, now, or risk losing everything.

Really value your responses, Pete, and those of everyone else.
 

patchworkamber

Registered User
Jan 6, 2014
45
south east wales
Gosh, this really seems to have triggered a lot of debate which I have found very useful and will certainly be referring back to all the responses. What it has made me think about is that of course, when the time comes, I will only have half of his pension. I have cancelled our charitable direct debits, national trust, rspb etc, can't visit them now anyway! I willalso be paying the balance of our funeral plans out of his account not ours or mine. (Really good idea and had 12 months to settle after paying a deposit). Fortunately I am in part time work, and at 54 hope to carry for awhile longer. And I did buy a new handbag today!
 

Scarlett123

Registered User
Apr 30, 2013
3,802
Essex
I apologise if I am wrong but I thought that in Wales there is only the £24,000 limit and below this, no further capital is taken towards the cost of care home fees. That is, the £14,250 is n't involved.

Scarlett, I think you have a generous LA. Even the £525 is way over what our LA paid.
I think I may not have explained this properly, :eek: , for which I apologise. My LA has a ceiling of £525 that they will pay for a place in a Care Home. There are no council Homes left in the Borough, so they have contracts with private Homes.

So if Mr XYZ needs to go into care, owns his own home and is married, but has less than £14000 ish of savings in his name, or £28000 in a joint account, the LA pick up the bill.

From the £525, they will charge Mr XYZ his state pension, and half his private pension, if he has one. After 4 weeks his AA or DLA will cease. So if he gets, say, £140 in SRP a week, and £100 private pension a week, he will have to pay £140 plus £50 (half his private pension) = £190, less his PEA (£24), so £166 a week towards this. Plus he's "lost" £85 ish AA or DLA.

Now if Mr ABC has paid for decades into a good private pension, perhaps with a final salary scheme, he may have had £300 a week, and he has to pass over £150, plus his SRP. It may be that my LA's starting figure seems generous, in comparison to yours, because we are in London. Where are you, and what does your LA pay as its starting figure?

Incidentally, when I first did a Care Home Crawl, a year before John needed to go to one, I found what was my dream choice, but the fees are £1350 a week! This was in a nice, but nothing special, area, where a friend has just sold her 3 bed semi, with loft conversion, for £525000. Someone self funding, on their own, may think they're rolling in it, but their annual fees would be about £70000, and with dire interest rates, even though they would retain their SRP and AA, if they received it, their "pot" would last less than 10 years.

It's frightening, isn't it. :eek::eek::eek:
 

Saffie

Registered User
Mar 26, 2011
22,506
Near Southampton
Our LA's ceiling was£465. That's why I said yur LA was generous Scarlett. Also because they allowed half the life assurance to be disregarded.
LAs seem to vary quite a lot in their interpretation of how discerning they can be.
 

Pete R

Registered User
Jul 26, 2014
2,044
Staffs
Where are you, and what does your LA pay as its starting figure?
I know you didn't ask me specifically but in Staffs it is £410. It has been that amount for 3 years now and remains in place even though the New Care Act has supposed to have stopped it.:(
 

nitram

Registered User
Apr 6, 2011
19,739
North Manchester
"Where are you, and what does your LA pay as its starting figure?"

North Manchester

"The rates for 2015/16 are:
Residential Care homes for Adults under 65:
Level A £425.15
Level B £414.42
Level C £392.94
Level D £368.83
Residential Care homes for Adults over 65 (subject to review for 2015/16):
Level A £420.94
Level B £410.31
Level C £389.04
Level D £368.83
If you are assessed as needing Nursing Care the Funded Nursing Care Allowance is paid by the Clinical Commissioning Group (CCG) on top of the above rates, and paid direct to the home.
The standard charge in a Local Authority home is £509.71 per week.
All the above funding rates are reviewed annually."


Note that the standard charge for an LA home is more than the top LA tariff, the only LA homes left only take respite or reablement.

Care home fees are 60% to 100% more than the Level A tariff.
 

Scarlett123

Registered User
Apr 30, 2013
3,802
Essex
Our LA's ceiling was£465. That's why I said yur LA was generous Scarlett. Also because they allowed half the life assurance to be disregarded.
LAs seem to vary quite a lot in their interpretation of how discerning they can be.
And that's what is so wrong. I'm assuming, though I don't know for sure, that my LA's rates were higher, because of the location, ie London. However it took me months to convince the Incontinence Advisory Service that John couldn't control his urine any better here, than if he lived in Yorkshire.

Someone on TP from Yorkshire had said that they could get both pads and pants - we were only offered pads, which were useless for John, so I was paying £15 a week for those myself.

This postcode lottery, which is also used for medical treatments and procedures, is so wrong. My friend in Devon received CHC for her husband and pays nothing. He was granted this, 2 years ago, and still receives his State Pension in full.
 

snowygirl

Registered User
Jan 9, 2014
151
I'm sorry to drop in but I'm in a crisis point right now and have a meeting this week with SS and the mental health team over my dad who is currently in respite. I'm trying to read as much as I can about costs. Can I just clarify something that Scarlett123 mentioned in an earlier post? If the LA ( I assume this means SS)after an Individual Needs Assessment determines that my dad should stay in care despite has family's wishes to bring him home and work with carers, is it then their responsibility to pay towards his care even though he would normally be self-funding? Sorry if I've read this wrongly!
 

jenniferpa

Registered User
Jun 27, 2006
39,448
I'm sorry to drop in but I'm in a crisis point right now and have a meeting this week with SS and the mental health team over my dad who is currently in respite. I'm trying to read as much as I can about costs. Can I just clarify something that Scarlett123 mentioned in an earlier post? If the LA ( I assume this means SS)after an Individual Needs Assessment determines that my dad should stay in care despite has family's wishes to bring him home and work with carers, is it then their responsibility to pay towards his care even though he would normally be self-funding? Sorry if I've read this wrongly!
I'm sorry - you have read this wrong. Even if the LA makes the determination that a care home is necessary, the funding guidelines still are followed. The only exception to this is if continuing health care is granted or if section 117 aftercare comes into place.