Nursing home fees when you're absent

[Reverend James]

We're presently seeking a nursing home who can look after my father who has dementia.

Unsurprisingly, the weekly cost is £900.

What does surprise me is that should he have to go into hospital for any reason and vacates the home for a period of time, we will still have to pay the FULL amount. If his absence becomes long term, the home kindly offers a 10% discount!!

Can anyone explain to me how this can be just when services such as food, laundry and care would not be taken? I could understand if a fair and reasonable retainer of say £200 a week were required to keep the room but a 10% discount is laughable.

Has anyone been able to negotiate a fair and reasonable contract with a nursing home?

I spoke to Age UK about this and their response was "well a private care home can basically charge what it likes." Not very helpful!

It would also be helpful to know if Local Authorities who fund patients at residential / nursing homes have the same contracts as self funders....

 

[Chemmy]

Hello and welcome to TP

You may find this link provides some answers

http://www.jrf.org.uk/publications/calculating-efficient-cost-care-homes

I guess most the CH's overheads, particularly staffing, will remain pretty much the same, whether your father is resident or not. They will try not to have rooms empty if at all possible; your fathers room couldn't even be rented out for temporary respite either if he keeps his belongings in there.

 

[Jess26]

Mum was LA funded and there was no discount for the two hospital stays she had whist a CH resident. Also we were told if she was away for more than 4 nights she would need a reassessment before she could return.

 

[Angela T]

I think most CHs/NHs charge the full amount during hospital stays.

As Chemmy said, the overheads remain pretty much the same - apart from the minimal cost of food, laundry... which probably explains the 10% discount.

The carers may be a bit less busy if a resident is in hospital, but that doesn't reduce the overall the cost of staffing for the NH.

 

[Reverend James]

Granted no home wants empty rooms but his belongins could be removed (there aren't many) and the room could be allocated to someone else. If this means we have to start again on discharge, fair enough.

If the person is not there to take advantage of food, heating, laundry and care, how can charging for it be justified? His Funded Nursing Care payment would stop so why shouldn't most of his fees? A four week absence would rack up fees of £3,600!

 

[Moonflower]

I think because the biggest cost is staff, and that won't change during his absence. The whole nursing home will still be heated, laundry and care staff still paid. There will be a small cost saving for the food ingredients not used, but not much more than that
I would imagine that if you actually vacate his room - remove his belongings etc - and a new resident is found then you would no longer pay anything, subject to a contractual notice period. But then you'd have to find somewhere for him once he leaves hospital

 

[jaymor]

The overheads are not any less when a resident goes into hospital, mortgage, council tax, staff, lighting and heating, the list goes on. Children's nurseries do the same, you pay to keep the place.

I should imagine a weeks stay in hospital far exceeds the cost of a week in a nursing home, thank goodness we do not have to pay for that at point of admission. It may well come though as the NHS is very underfunded.

 

[Reverend James]

Here's a tip for anyone considering 'saving up for later life'. Don't!

If you have to self fund care, you're looking at about £40,000 a year (in our case).

While you still have your health, if you have the money, take a 124 day voyage around the world on the QE2. A decent cabin will set you back about £12,000 but you'll have plenty to eat, have a doctor on board if you need it and see some wondeful places.

When you read that self funding residents often pay between 10 and 20% more than those paid for by the Local Authority, you can see the benefit of getting your savings down to as close to the thresh-hold as possible. The only benefit of having some savings is being able to choose your home but at these rates, it won't last very long.

 

[Kevinl]

self funding residents often pay between 10 and 20% more than those paid for by the Local Authority.

Jim 10 & 20%, try doubling that and then adding some, self funders are the golden geese with the Midas touch flown straight there from their home in El Dorado, they're a care home's dreams, council rate +50% is about the average self funder price.
K

 

[Angela T]

50 % ???

Are you sure ?

So if I am paying £1,200 a week, the LA rate is £800 ?

 

[jaymor]

LA will get a good discount in care home beds, they fill the majority of beds within homes so in truth they are bulk buying at a good discount which for us as tax payers is a bonus because we get more for the money we provide.

Does not make it any easier to swallow as a self funding payer but it is the way of the world these days.

 

[Pete R]

50 % ???

Are you sure ?

So if I am paying £1,200 a week, the LA rate is £800 ?

I have just moved Mom from a Nursing Home of one of the big providers.

Private....£880
LA..........£550

 

[Reverend James]

The "way of the world" in the Uk is that if you're not self funding, you'll be placed on an e-bay style bidding list for care homes to bid for you.

Your council will then decide which they can afford based on your needs.

The wonderful Phillipino nurses who help care for my father say that this is a world away from what happens back home where the family helps care for those in need.

If only they and other care assistants received a decent salary for the wonderful work they do.

 

[Kevinl]

50 % ???

Are you sure ?

So if I am paying £1,200 a week, the LA rate is £800 ?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/elder/9317340/Care-home-residents-who-pay-subsidising-the-rest-owners-admit.html

 

[Onlyme]

Self funding in private home £1000+

LA funding have an agreed amount of
£630
- £110 nursing allowance

=. £520

- £113.30 person's pension

Total £407 approximately by LA

 

[Pickles53]

The wonderful Phillipino nurses who help care for my father say that this is a world away from what happens back home where the family helps care for those in need.
.

And that what everyone on TP is doing; you only have to read the heartbreaking stories on this forum to see that families all across the country are risking their own health and happiness on behalf of their loved ones.

I don't know about the Philippines, but I have lived in China. While family members are cared for at home, this does not necessarily translate to a good quality of life. Mental illness and disability is still often seen as shameful, so the family member is hidden away, and may be locked up in the home for long periods as everyone else has to go out to work.

I don't think it is helpful to draw these types of comparisons as societies and cultures are so completely different.

 

[Angela T]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/elder/9317340/Care-home-residents-who-pay-subsidising-the-rest-owners-admit.html

Thank you Kevin1, very instructive !!!

Yes it is a hidden taxation.

It really makes you think, doesn't it ? My parents were careful all their lives - and now my mother is paying over the top, as she is a self-funder...

It is such a HUGE expense - dementia care - that it won't change, no government will want to take on that spiralling cost... so this unfair system will continue...

 

[Reverend James]

And that what everyone on TP is doing; you only have to read the heartbreaking stories on this forum to see that families all across the country are risking their own health and happiness on behalf of their loved ones.

I don't know about the Philippines, but I have lived in China. While family members are cared for at home, this does not necessarily translate to a good quality of life. Mental illness and disability is still often seen as shameful, so the family member is hidden away, and may be locked up in the home for long periods as everyone else has to go out to work.

I don't think it is helpful to draw these types of comparisons as societies and cultures are so completely different.

It may not be helpful to draw comparisons with other societies and cultures however ours is questionable where you work hard all your life, claim few if any benefits, put money aside for your children and grandchildren, only to pay significantly more than others who can often be receiving the same care as you because they don't, for whatever reason have the money. Where's the equality in that?

 

[jenniferpa]

I'll tell you the one advantage of being a self-funder: you get a choice far greater that that given to most LA funded residents. And you don't have to deal with social services normally.

 

[Chemmy]

I found it helpful to remind myself that it was my mother's money, not mine, and her only actual need during her eight years self-funding in a CH was for the best quality care I could find, not maintaining savings in the bank.

My inheritance wasn't an inheritance until she died and I had no right to regard her savings as 'mine' until then.

I didn't grudge her a penny and I didn't expect other taxpayers to pay for her care.