1. redlester

    redlester Registered User

    Mar 29, 2006
    20
    Leicester
    Hi, have just joined the forum. My mum was diagnosed before Christmas and is now taking Aricept. We're off to our regular check up at the cognitive assessment clinic later today. She's not too bad at present - still able to look after herself pretty well, social services had a chat with her and she doesn't qualify for any help yet because she's not at the stage where she needs it. I feel a bit of a fraud here when I see the stories some others are posting, who are in far worse situations than myself.

    Anyway, I am trying to think ahead. My mum lives alone, she's 70, my dad died 6 years ago and all the rest of the family live in Scotland. Mum doesn't want to move back up there. So I am only next of kin and having to deal with it all. I have organised Enduring Power of Attorney and had it witnessed by mum's GP (though not registered yet of course). Am going to see mum's financial adviser tomorrow to sort out exactly what savings etc she has. I know her and my dad have quite a few savings and investments etc. She also owns her own home, and owns a holiday flat in Scotland, so I need to talk to financial advisor about all that and the possible implications. I know it sounds callous to be thinking of such things, but I keep reading that one should always look ahead as much as possible.

    Mum is fine for the present, and hopefully things will only slowly get worse, but I expect eventually she may reach the stage where she needs residential care. Hopefully this will be years down the line yet, but I am just wondering about how much it costs. I have found lots of information on the web about finances in respect of who has to pay and what legal obligations are, etc, but not much at all about the actual fees. What is the ball park figure for a typical nursing home, per month? Or is that impossible to answer - do the costs vary wildly depending on what type of care and where in the country? I am in the East Midlands.
     
  2. ElaineMaul

    ElaineMaul Registered User

    Jan 29, 2005
    333
    Hi Redlecester,
    Please don't feel a fraud! There are lots of things to think about even in the early stages ...... as, indeed, you have been doing ...... that are better thought about now rather than later. And so many people here are willing to offer advice that I'm sure you'll find it supportive.
    My Dad is also at the early stages ...... 'outsiders' probably wouldn't notice any problems but he can get flustered very easily and can repeat things and forget things ... and unfortunately can lose his temper very easily with my Mum .... but he gets round his local area perfectly OK.
    Take care,
    Elaine
     
  3. noelphobic

    noelphobic Registered User

    Feb 24, 2006
    3,452
    Liverpool

    Why is it that we all feel we have to apologise for daring to mention money, the dreaded mammon?!!! This is not a dig at you, just an observation!

    To put it into pounds, shillings and pence, I would say a ball park figure is £20-30k a year. Obviously, any income eg pension, attendance allowance etc would go towards this. Also, the resident has to be left with 'pocket money', currently approximately £18.80 per week. If the resident has less than £12500-£20500 of capital left then the local authority takes over the fees.

    This is just my opinion, and maybe a contentious one, but I would say that if you can legally, ethically etc dispose of some of the persons assets to get them below that threshold then I would do so. As long as you have their best interests at heart and don't lay yourself open to any charges of wrong doing then do so.

    What would your mum want to happen to her money? Would she want it to pay for care that the local authority can pay for? Or would she want it to go to her children and grand children? As long as any decision you make in regards to this does not narrow choices or impact on her care then spend the money.

    I know not everyone will agree with me, so feel free to say if you feel otherwise.
     
  4. Lynne

    Lynne Registered User

    Jun 3, 2005
    3,433
    Suffolk,England
    It so happens that residential care for the elderly is being discussed a lot on the radio & TV today. Some government bod who I was listening to this morning quoted £400 to £500 per week. He wasn't specific as to whether that included personal care, or nursing care, or whatever, but my gut feeling was that the figure was low compared to the real world.

    I know there are many regular contributors here who do have loved ones in care homes (either full time, or respite care for 1 or 2 weeks) so it would certainly be interesting to learn from them what the actual costs are, and what degree of attention they are supposed to cover.

    And please, don't feel unwelcome or 'a fraud' for joining this forum when your Mum's condition is still at an early stage. Nearly every medical problem is best tackled at the earliest stage possible, as soon as it is recognised. Hopefully Aricept will prolong the time your Mum is able to remain in her own home with help from family and - when appropriate - social services or community nursing.

    I'm in pretty well the same situation as you are, but this group of people here are absolutely marvellous in their generosity of spirit and sharing their experiences & tips, contacts etc.

    (PS - Noelphobic:- agree with you entirely re. finances!)
     
  5. redlester

    redlester Registered User

    Mar 29, 2006
    20
    Leicester
    Thanks for the kind words folks. I was driving home last night and VERY late on (thanks to the M6) heard a discussion on 5 Live about the recent report and this whole subject. The guy on there mentioned a figure of between £400 and £600 a week, so I guess the £20-30k/year estimate is about right.

    Just off to see mum's financial advisor now, will discuss the options with him...

    Thanks again everyone.
     
  6. noelphobic

    noelphobic Registered User

    Feb 24, 2006
    3,452
    Liverpool
    I think the figure may vary around the country, down South possible being more expensive, and also nursing home care is generally more expensive than care home care. However, in a nursing home the resident should get at least some money paid towards it - should be all of it in my opinion, but that's another thread.

    My mum is in a nursing home and the fees are £450 per week if the local authority is paying, £575 per week if the resident is paying - yet another inequity and discrimination against anyone daring to have £20500 or more in assets or property!

    I was reading recently about the care home that used to be owned by the man who was supposedly trying to buy himself a peerage. That home was in or near London and it was charging around £700 a week a couple of years ago!

    My mum was in a care home and I think the fees there were around £450 per week. However, the local authority would only pay around £400 per week so if the resident was local authority funded then the relatives were expected to find the £50 per week from their own pockets!:eek:
     
  7. Tender Face

    Tender Face Account Closed

    Mar 14, 2006
    5,379
    NW England
    Right, I'm missing something here! (Or I should be the next Chancellor, either way).

    I haven't delved into the 'financial' side much (yet) except to look at what Carer's Allowance I MIGHT get to keep mum in her own home for as long as possible.....(i.e. me completely giving up my job and pension etc)

    If I have read these posts correctly, it costs, say, £450 for the govt to fund a place in a nursing home, yet as a carer we can expect a paltry £45 from them to do the same job, including transport and other costs?

    The Wanless Report is surely only telling all of us here what governments for decades have shown that working hard, trying to save ‘for a rainy day’ and caring for your family are values that went down the drain before there was a decent sewerage system.

    Well, some people seem to get to a rainy day without an umbrella – and then the government provides. It’s those who made sure they and their families were well equipped for inclement weather who get punished!

    Irrational, illogical and angry - pass me the soapbox!

    Sorry, just had to get that off my chest!
     
  8. DickG

    DickG Registered User

    Feb 26, 2006
    558
    Stow-on-the-Wold
    Couldn't agree more Tender Face. I am currently spending like a drunken sailor to reduce my savings just in case we will need to call on SS for help and hope to join the feckless. Just bought a new car and am having a new study built as part of the new strategy. Don't know where it will end but "frankly my dear I don't give a damn".
     
  9. bernie

    bernie Registered User

    Jul 28, 2005
    52
    south london
    that's politics.

    people want decent provisions for the elderly/ ill etc but they will not be willing to pay the taxes to pay for them.

    people want all cancer patients dementia patients etc to have the best drugs, but they are not willing to pay the taxes to pay for them.

    how much would you personally be prepared to pay extra in taxes to fund the care, 10%, 20%.

    post thatcher Britain, is not willing to pay those sort of taxes. it is unfair, but as a caring society we have to provide for those who do not have the means, no matter what the reasons are that they don't have them.
     
  10. Margarita

    Margarita Registered User

    Feb 17, 2006
    10,824
    london
    What !!!!! !ts costs us £10bn- a year but it doeant't stop the elderly from suffering
    It neither prevents misery and suffering amony the elderly nor helps those who fall ill to keepvor regan thire independence .

     
  11. Tender Face

    Tender Face Account Closed

    Mar 14, 2006
    5,379
    NW England
    “that's politics”

    Mum always taught me never talk about religion or politics so I am very dodgy ground here…..!!! :) (and absolutely nothing personal – by the way I am an agnostic where politics are concerned!!!)

    ”people want decent provisions for the elderly/ ill etc but they will not be willing to pay the taxes to pay for them”.

    Surely what we have to recognise is that our elderly are the ones who have actually paid the most in tax and NI insurance over the years to governments of different political parties – what’s happened/ happening to their investment for themselves????? :mad: (Anyone see the toy-boy pension scandal today? – sorry, I digress, as usual!)

    ”people want all cancer patients dementia patients etc to have the best drugs, but they are not willing to pay the taxes to pay for them”.

    … until it happens to them and/or a member of their family, right….

    ”how much would you personally be prepared to pay extra in taxes to fund the care, 10%, 20%”…. “ it is unfair, but as a caring society we have to provide for those who do not have the means, no matter what the reasons are that they don't have them”

    I would pay whatever it meant to have the best education for our children, the best care for our elderly, the best health care for the sick etc etc – I just want to know that what I am paying is fair, i.e. that Joe Bloggs next door is ‘doing his whack’ as much as I am, or my dad did, or mum did etc etc (And God forbid, when and if I need it, that it is there for me, too!)

    What really ‘gets my goat here’ – and you are so right when you say ‘whatever the reasons’ – is that I see so much injustice in the benefits system. How come some people can ‘chose’ to live on benefits and seem to get every handout going whilst others juggle jobs, families, caring and seem to ‘qualify’ for nothing?

    That, to me, is not a caring society, that is one that allows the rich to make their own decisions, gives the poor no motivation and for the likes of my family (somewhere between middling and very- low-average) allows us to struggle on and wonder why the hell our parents worked so hard to give themselves and us a supposedly better future.

    Thanks, redlester, for starting this one off – it’s prompted me to think more practically. Hope amongst all this diatribe you are getting some questions answered!

    I am still in astonishment at this minimum £400/450 funding per week. Having to ‘chip in’ £50 or so seems nothing compared to giving up my own financial future (what there is of it)… If I were to give up work to look after mum, not only would I no longer be paying my own tax and NI contributions (small as they are just now), I would be taking from the ‘state’ (all the other taxpayers out there) – on balance they are still ‘quids in’ by far. I could start to see it as ‘doing my bit for my country’ I suppose, never mind what I wished I could do for mum practically and emotionally without committing financial suicide for my own family.

    And whilst mum is at home, she is paying her tax on her pension, VAT on her energy bills……etc etc What (financial) incentive is there to try to look after people in their own homes at all?
     
  12. Margarita

    Margarita Registered User

    Feb 17, 2006
    10,824
    london
    Tender face don’t for get if your rich your have to dig in to your saving if your not working & if you clam income support because you do not have saving to support you while your not working to look after your mum, your carer allowance is cut down to £25, because you can not claim 2 social benefits, you get what is called underlying carer allowance & dose count towards your pension, like child benefit does.

    My advice don’t give up work unless you can afford it, try & get a full time carer in, oh yes easy said then done , because when you get home tried from work don’t forget you still got to look after your mum, night time as the stage progress , ok yeah push for night carer to live in or stay the night ,oh then the funding for one if you can’t afford it ,as if your get it !!! thats a joke

    Social worker encourage you to keep your love one at home ,yes living on the bread line ,because they do not want to pay for the funding for your love one in a care home ,or the founding to care for them at home while you work, unless you have the money to bring in a carer 24/7

    Then if you have a home you can sell it. Oh yes they find your love one a home as long as your love one sell there family home.

    It’s a catch 22
     
  13. shamrock

    shamrock Registered User

    Mar 31, 2006
    1
    Milton Keynes
    Cost

    This is my first time so bare with me--------my mother was in a warden controlled flat sha has been in and out of hospital, the last time signing herself out, although myself and careers said she needed help , because when questioned she was okay or so they said, I was never present. A month ago she managed to get outside the flat (SECURITY CAMERS NOT WORKING) HAD A BAD FALL and ended up in hospital in a very confused state, after four weeks she has been moved to a care home, where they think she is perfect. LOW RISK THEY CALL IT. But I know she is in a world of over 30 years ago. They are now asking if I have power of attorney because she has always managed her affairs, I have asked her solicitor for guideance, she is going to see her next week, but what happens if my mother does not give me power of attorney.
    To close my children give me all the support they can but they have their own lives, my partner is non supportive.

    Shamrock:confused:
     
  14. Tender Face

    Tender Face Account Closed

    Mar 14, 2006
    5,379
    NW England
    "It’s a catch 22"

    How right you are, Margarita! I could take up a full time post, instead of the little part-time job I try to hold down now, so that I could afford to pay for someone to look after my child outside school-time, someone to look after mum... and have even less disposable income than I have now! (not to mention precious little 'quality time' with either of them!)

    I don't want to get 'all political' again (sigh of relief!) but I really despair that I am living in a society which I just don't see as as 'family-orientated' - whether we're caring for the young or the old....... (or in many cases here, both!)
     
  15. Margarita

    Margarita Registered User

    Feb 17, 2006
    10,824
    london
    #15 Margarita, Mar 31, 2006
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2006
    Welcome Shamrock :)

    sounds so Familiar.

    Don’t know if this is of any help ,but when it all started with mum getting AD & not knowing ,my solicitor trun around to me & said think of the worse & hope for the best
     
  16. Margarita

    Margarita Registered User

    Feb 17, 2006
    10,824
    london
    Tender face we posted at the same time, so did not see your post I feel like that to

     
  17. Tender Face

    Tender Face Account Closed

    Mar 14, 2006
    5,379
    NW England
    Hi Shamrock

    I just realised that I had posted a response on this thread which 'crossed' with yours and didn't want you to feel it was 'by-passed'.

    I don't know if I have yet earned the right to say 'welcome' - I'm pretty new here myself - but wanted you to know I'm sorry to hear about what has happened to your mum.

    You know, every post I read here makes me think more and more about my own situation in a different light - sometimes it makes me feel very anxious for the future, sometimes I wonder what on earth I'm worrying about when others seem to have 'so much more on their plate'.

    Whichever way, I have certainly found great support here, and I am sure you will too.
     
  18. redlester

    redlester Registered User

    Mar 29, 2006
    20
    Leicester
    Update: Went through everything with financial advisor. Mum has a private pension, and a company pension on top of the state pension. She also has an ISA and an investment bond. So with that and the house she owns, plus the holiday flat she owns, she is well above any limits to qualify for any state funding. Basically, as I understand it, all the above would collectively be used to pay for any care she needs in years to come.

    The catch is that I know that's not what she wants. She and my late father accrued all they have by years of hard work, and I know she wants it to go to me. I have her will which says so, and she has verbally said that on numerous occasions! I think it comforts her that I am provided for by her and dad. If it goes to me and then I use it to pay for part or all of her care, that's one thing, but the thought of having it legally taken from her and poured into the bank account of someone who gets rich off other people's misery is too depressing for words.

    (On the political points, I think ALL care should be state funded and we should be taxed whatever the hell it takes to do that. Do away with the royal family for a start, that might help pay for some of it...)

    Financial advisor can only tell me about the monetary values etc., not the finer details of the law as regards inheritance. Apparently there is a clause whereby if property is 'gifted' she has to live at least 7 years to avoid huge inheritance tax or something. Mind you, that still may be preferable to simply losing the house! He says I need to see a solicitor, so am going to organise that this week and get to the bottom of all this.
     
  19. noelphobic

    noelphobic Registered User

    Feb 24, 2006
    3,452
    Liverpool
    There are a lot of people who feel, as you do, that all care should be state funded, myself included.

    I should also point out that there is a difference between nursing homes and care homes. Care homes are classed as providing 'social care' which is totally means tested. Nursing homes have to have a registered nurse on duty at all times and are judged to provide more in the way of 'medical' care. If a person is assessed as needing nursing care then some help is available towards it. There are 3 levels that are provided - off the top of my head I would say the payments are something like £40, £80 and £120. The downside to this is that nursing homes are generally more expensive anyway and usually the resident has to be assessed as having more than 'just' dementia - ie other physical problems.

    There is also fully funded nhs continuing care. I have read up on this a lot and it would seem that the chances of getting fully funded care are about equal to the chances of winning the lottery! Of course if you won the lottery then you might not mind paying so much!

    There is also the option to buy an annuity. This means that a set amount is paid which covers the care costs for life. I'm no expert on this but I think it works the same way a lot of insurance does - of the person in the care home lives a long time then they get a good deal, if they don't then the company providing the annuity gets a good deal.

    If there are enough assets of course then it is possible that sufficient interest could be raised on them to pay care/nursing home fees without eroding the capital. There is also the option of renting the property out.
     
  20. ludwig

    ludwig Registered User

    Feb 8, 2006
    28
    Hello,
    my mum is mid stage dementia (c15mths now) she has a reasonable house and some savings. Shes well over the limit so over the last 12 months or so I, with POA have spent £15k+ on private carers, as her 3 kids (inc me) muck in but we have families/live away etc so can only do a limited amount and can not cover the care she needs.

    In march the VAT on the carers was £153.50 and we got a total of c£160 attendance allowance for my sister who is self employed and is lead carer and is with my mum part of every day. The Govt therefore contributed about £6.50 to her care last month whilst her three kids tear arsed around, stressed out, every weekend, every night, etc etc.

    Her savings will last about another 18 months then the house will have to go.
    Its an absolute scandal but we have no realistic and practical option.

    What about the old people who have no kids who get dumped in a home and the Govt takes their houses. My heart goes out to them - denied a dignified end after paying taxes all their lives.

    Got that off my chest then!

    Keep smiling,
    Ludwig
     

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