Non family members applying for COP

[Cottonfresh]

Hi, first time poster here. Hope this makes sense

I have a family member (who I will call Pops) who has dementia which is at stage 4. Pops has a step daughter who is his wife's child when he married his wife many years ago, they never had any children together. The wife has passed away and the daughter who has never been legally adopted by Pops has taken charge of getting social services involved with Pops day to day living as the step daughter lives up north (a four hour car journey, she doesn't drive and has an illness that effects travelling) I feel she has no idea of Pops needs. She has not visited Pops or her deceased mum in years and did not attend her mothers funeral this was all dealt with over the phone.

Pops has expressed he does not want his deceased wife's daughter helping out at all. The step daughter has also by some means got her name on Pops bank account, which means she can over see direct debit payments etc, I am unsure if she can transfer money etc. . The only way Pops could get cash is for his neighbours or us (myself /my sister take him to the bank as he has no cards) when he was living in his house. This is where it has all come to light that step daughter has got her name on Pops bank account.

The step daughter and the wife's niece have applied to have COP deputy rights despite pops not wanting them to have any say of what happens regards his living and finance decisions. He has expressed this to family members including myself also to the social worker who was looking after his case. Since the application has been presented pops has been moved from his house (which he owns) into self funding accommodation due to him going wondering of a night etc.

I have emailed the social worker who was looking after pops case and she has told me now pops is self funding the SS have nothing to do with the COP application. Firstly is this correct? Pops has mentioned having an independent solicitor looking after his finances. Also when Pops was moved to the self funding care home his house keys were taken away by the SS for safeguarding his home issues which is understandable. Another issue here is the step daughter has mentioned renting Pops house out, this has not been mentioned to Pops.

How do we get the keys back to check on any post that may have been delivered as I am assuming any correspondence regards the COPD application will have been delivered to Pops house advising him of the intention that these non family members have applied for deputy rights. (he has not been at the house since November 2019).

This is a very difficult situation as the new care home where he is now self funding and SS only have the people who have applied for deputy rights details (the step daughter and the deceased wife's niece) I assume they would not give me or my sister the keys.

Pops did tell the social worker on his case that he wanted his step daughter and the niece to have no rights at all.

This has all been done underhanded without family members being consulted. Any help on this matter would be appreciated.

Cleanfresh

 

[Shedrech]

Hello @Cottonfresh
A warm welcome to DTP

Yours is a complicated situation
I think I'd contact the OPG direct and ask for information
https://www.gov.uk/become-deputy

Someone can only apply to become a Deputy once the person in question no longer has capacity to manage their own affairs... is this the case for Pops?

There is also the AS helpline... the advisors have a lot of knowledge of LPA/Deputyship issues
https://www.alzheimers.org.uk/get-support/national-dementia-helpline

 

[Cottonfresh]

Hello @Cottonfresh
A warm welcome to DTP
QUOTE]

Hi Shedrech,

Thank you for your reply, yes unfortunately Pops no longer has capacity to manage his own affairs. So sad to see what dementia can do to folk.

I will look at contacting the OPG direct.

Thanks again
Cleanfresh

 

[Delphie]

Hi,

Unless things have changed of late, when a Deputyship application is made 'interested''parties, like family members, have to be notified. This gives them an opportunity to object to the application and even if you haven't been notified you can contact the court and say you're objecting. If your reasons are sound the court can appoint a panel Deputy, quite often a solicitor, so that would fall in with what Pops said he wanted. There's a cost attached to this of course as professional Deputies are paid for their time but it can be a better result than conflicting family members driving their own agendas.

I'm not sure how you can resolve the keys situation or even why you'd want to unless you're making your own Deputyship application and think you'll need the mail etc to get on top of things. If not then I'd let that be. Not your problem to sort out either now or later. I would, howevet, tell the SS that unless the other parties produce a deputyship court order they shouldn't be given access to the property either. At this point I would expect the SS to only be sharing information and keys with the next of kin, but even that is a fairly loose/informal way of doing things. In practice they like to have a point of contact with the family and if the others pushed themselves into that position then you need to say something , otherwise busy social workers will take the path of least resistance.

As far as the bank account, Pops might've signed a third party mandate, either knowingly or not. So, again, talk to the bank and explain the lack of capacity and that the Deputyship application will be contested. If you make them nervous enough they might freeze the bank account.

There are all kinds of safeguards which should prevent people from acting inappropriately and taking advantage but unless you make some noise people might not be aware that things are not as they should be. So voice your concerns and keep your fingers crossed that someone listens.

 

[Delphie]

One last thing. Deputies are very much supervised. There's an annual report, everything has to be accounted for to the last penny, decisions need to be clearly in the best interest of the person who lacks capacity and there's even Insurance in the form of a bond so there's a safety net if a Deputy messes up financially. So if the worst case scenario is them getting a Deputyship then there will be oversight as far as what they do. So try not to worry too much. Easy to say, I know...

 

[Hil76]

Hi,

Unless things have changed of late, when a Deputyship application is made 'interested''parties, like family members, have to be notified. This gives them an opportunity to object to the application and even if you haven't been notified you can contact the court and say you're objecting. If your reasons are sound the court can appoint a panel Deputy, quite often a solicitor, so that would fall in with what Pops said he wanted. There's a cost attached to this of course as professional Deputies are paid for their time but it can be a better result than conflicting family members driving their own agendas.

I'm not sure how you can resolve the keys situation or even why you'd want to unless you're making your own Deputyship application and think you'll need the mail etc to get on top of things. If not then I'd let that be. Not your problem to sort out either now or later. I would, howevet, tell the SS that unless the other parties produce a deputyship court order they shouldn't be given access to the property either. At this point I would expect the SS to only be sharing information and keys with the next of kin, but even that is a fairly loose/informal way of doing things. In practice they like to have a point of contact with the family and if the others pushed themselves into that position then you need to say something , otherwise busy social workers will take the path of least resistance.

As far as the bank account, Pops might've signed a third party mandate, either knowingly or not. So, again, talk to the bank and explain the lack of capacity and that the Deputyship application will be contested. If you make them nervous enough they might freeze the bank account.

There are all kinds of safeguards which should prevent people from acting inappropriately and taking advantage but unless you make some noise people might not be aware that things are not as they should be. So voice your concerns and keep your fingers crossed that someone listens.

@Cottonfresh What a terrible situation for you to be in, from what you’ve said, it has been gone about in a very underhand way and it seems that pops best interests are not what is the most important thing for these people, I can’t believe that this has been allowed, I’m always saying for relatives to get POA put in place as soon as possible when AD reaches a certain stage, this would have avoided this situation but you had no idea that this was going to happen with non relatives and could not have been expected to know. Others who have commented seem to be giving the best advice for you. I hope you can get this sorted out ASAP, as these people should not be in a position to take control of pop’s affairs like this. Best of luck xx

 

[theunknown]

From my own experience Social Services don't decide on applications for CoP deputyship. There are several forms to fill in and one of those is for a named professional needing to certify that this person isn't able to agree to anyone taking on the deputyship due to them no longer able to understand what's happening. Whatever has gone on in the past, whoever gains deputyship is subject to very stringent regulations - far more so than with PoA. I agree with Shedrech who said get in touch with the OPG for advice. If deputyship is granted whatever previous arrangements there have been about bank accounts won't apply.

 

[canary]

I am going to play devils advocate here.
How do you know that the step-daughter does not have his best interest at heart? By your own admission she has been the one who has liaised with SS, she has obviously been looking after his finances up till now (Pops would have had to express the wish for her to become a third party to his accounts and sign forms at the bank) and it would seem to me that SS would have naturally contacted the step-daughter about applying for deputyship as she was the one they had been dealing with.

I had third party access to mums bank account - I had to take her to the bank along with ID etc, mum had to clearly express her wish that I became third party and had to sign several times. Unfortunately she would not give me POA and refused right up until the time that she lost capacity. By this stage she was convinced that I was stealing from her, was mistreating her (neither of which was true) and half the time she would not let me into her home. I know that she begged an old friend of hers to promise that she wouldnt let me take all her money. Then at other times mum would be begging me to come an live with her (which I couldnt do). Eventually mum had to move into a care home and SS asked whether I wanted to apply for CoP deputyship to make sure that he care home fees were paid. I also had to sell her home to pay the fees. If I had not been willing, then a panel solicitor would have been appointed and he would have had the complete say on what happened to her home and all her possessions and the family would have had no say at all.

 

[Hil76]

I am going to play devils advocate here.
How do you know that the step-daughter does not have his best interest at heart? By your own admission she has been the one who has liaised with SS, she has obviously been looking after his finances up till now (Pops would have had to express the wish for her to become a third party to his accounts and sign forms at the bank) and it would seem to me that SS would have naturally contacted the step-daughter about applying for deputyship as she was the one they had been dealing with.

I had third party access to mums bank account - I had to take her to the bank along with ID etc, mum had to clearly express her wish that I became third party and had to sign several times. Unfortunately she would not give me POA and refused right up until the time that she lost capacity. By this stage she was convinced that I was stealing from her, was mistreating her (neither of which was true) and half the time she would not let me into her home. I know that she begged an old friend of hers to promise that she wouldnt let me take all her money. Then at other times mum would be begging me to come an live with her (which I couldnt do). Eventually mum had to move into a care home and SS asked whether I wanted to apply for CoP deputyship to make sure that he care home fees were paid. I also had to sell her home to pay the fees. If I had not been willing, then a panel solicitor would have been appointed and he would have had the complete say on what happened to her home and all her possessions and the family would have had no say at all.

@theunknown @canary my input is purely based on on how helpful POA was for us in all sorts of aspects for mum, you undoubtedly have much more knowledge than I on CoP deputyship, from the way I read the situation it seemed like pops relative had not been made aware at the time CoP had been put in place but from what you say it couldn’t have happened without their consent. Regardless, it’s yet another awful thing to have to deal with in this situation we are all going through or have gone through. I’m sure your input has been very helpful. I can’t help advocating POA as it has been of great help to us. Best wishes xx

 

[sausagedog]

May I ask what relation are you to ‘pops’?

 

[Banjomansmate]

The CoP would only be able to contact the subject’s relatives if they have been told about them, surely? If the person applying for Deputyship doesn’t inform CoP that there are blood relations who could have an interest in/ should be informed of the application, then CoP wouldn’t do anything other than grant Deputyship.