Need some advice!

[worriedaboutnan]

Hi all, need some advice. My Grandma is in the late stages of Dementia and lacks mental capacity. She had been living in her own home, with carers going in to help with personal care and my uncle had moved himself in (he split up from his wife and needed somewhere to stay) He had taken on the role as 'carer' and was being paid carers allowance. He somehow managed to get her attendance allowance and pension paid into his bank account. She continues to pay ALL of the bills out of a pre standing direct debit from her own bank account. I had asked social services to get involved after previous hospital admissions through bad care and concerns he was spending her money without her consent. Suffice to say we didn't get anywhere with this process.

After yet another hospital admission, it has finally been agreed that he is not suitable to care for her and after a best of interest meeting it has been decided that my Grandma must go into a care home. Here is the tricky bit.....

We don't have Power of attorney, although thinking about Court appointed deputy.
My Grandmother has savings above £23000 and therefore is self funding.

One of our problems is my Uncle, because he has been registered as living at my Grandmothers house we cant kick him out....which i guess is fine but he doesn't want to pay anything to live there and thinks the current arrangement of my Grandmother paying all of the bills will continue. She shouldn't have to pay for a home she isn't living in.

The most sensible option would be to get control of my Grandmothers finances and then ask for rent to help pay towards the care fee's.....is this possible??

Can we get access to her finances without being a court appointed deputy?

 

[Fed Up]

So sorry to learn of your problems and I really don't know the answer but feel your family must seek proper professional advice. The law is a minefield and its best to get someone who is not emotionally involved because they can think a bit more objectively sometimes. And if property is involved it might be a very good idea, before he takes root and your in a much worse situation. Hope someone else comes along who can offer more help but if the uncle is not working he would not be able to claim housing benefit and you might find the situation re care home costs and his control of her money really difficult.

 

[chris53]

Hello worriedaboutnan, a warm welcome to you to Talking Point, am sorry do not have any experience of your very worrying problem, but did not want to just "read and run" if grandma needs to go into care (a new home) she should not be expected to pay the bills on her old home, also your uncle may not be able to claim carers allowance if he is not "looking" after her 35 hrs per week(please see link below, it may help)
www.carersuk.org › ... › Benefits & Tax Credits › Carer's Allowance
I am sure someone will be along soon to offer advice so please do keep posting, support and understanding is here by the bucketful.
Take care, best wishes
Chris x

 

[Noorza]

Without becoming a court appointed deputy you cannot access her finances. Your uncle must have become her appointee to get her to sign her pensions into his account, or managed to get PoA, or got her to sign to give authority some other way that I am not aware of.

Does she own the property?

Are her finances likely to drop below the £23,500 as if that happens your uncle could be in serious trouble as her financial situation will then be investigated. He cannot spend her money for his benefit and doing so could actually probably would be considered fraudulent.

I would call The Court of Protection on Monday morning to get some advice from them. I would also complete the forms on their website where you can ask if your nan has a PoA.

https://www.gov.uk/apply-to-the-court-of-protection

 

[Saffie]

If you decise to apply for Deputyship, I would do it as soon as possible as it can take some months to accomplish. Be warned though, your uncle will have to be informed of your application and can object, though in light of what has been happening, it may not carry much weight.

I agree with Noorza,it would do no harm to ring the CoP and ask for advice.
One thing, who will be responsible for paying the Care home fees?

 

[worriedaboutnan]

Thanks everyone for the replies, feel warmly welcomed

My Nan owns her own home. Although, my uncle believes that if social services get involved and put a charge on her home that they can only threaten this and cant legally make you pay back charges when she dies. Im quite sure this isn't true.

He also seems to think that if we cant get access to her finances to pay for the care that social services pay the fees. This option scares me.....they have told us that they will pay standard fee's but many 'good' homes have a top up fee. If we choose a better home that costs more, as my nan lacks capacity it therefore makes it our choice of home and we would have to pay the additional costs ourselves , crazy!

My uncle managed to become the appointee to get her pension but i know he couldn't get power of attorney because he has been bankrupt and has a huge tax bill. Are the rules the same for court appointed deputy? If so it may make the process easier.

Will ring CoP first thing Monday and keep you updated with any progress.

 

[FifiMo]

Hiya,

Firstly, can I ask how old your uncle is? If he is older than 60 then it could be that your nan's house would be excluded from any financial evaluation as long as he is living there. Even if he is not 60+ if he has been living there as her carer then that might also be a reason for the house to be excluded from the financial evaluations that any LA may undertake.

Yes, in the circumstances, if I was you then I would speak to the OPG (Office of the public guardian) but I would also apply to become her Deputy myself. Despite your uncle's garbled misunderstanding of how things work, he failed to consider that if you or someone in the family don't get Deputyship, then the Local Authority (LA) can apply and take control themselves if necessary.

What you need to do is arm yourself with proper information and understandings. By doing so you will be way ahead of your uncle and also in some circumstances ahead of the LA or SW staff too!

Here is a link to the forms and guidance on applying to become a Deputy.

http://www.justice.gov.uk/forms/opg

Here is a link also to what is referred to as CRAG (Charging for Residential Accommodation Guidance). This is the bible that LAs refer to when working out how much someone should or shouldn't contribute to their care.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...hment_data/file/301250/CRAG_34_April_2014.pdf

I would also advise you to ignore the ramblings of your uncle as his understanding of things is inaccurate. The last thing you need is hassle with the LA or Care Home. So check out your facts and you'll be fine.

If you have any questions then all you need to do is ask and we will help you in any way we can.

Take care and your nan is so lucky to have someone like you looking out for her!

Fiona

 

[Delphie]

Thanks everyone for the replies, feel warmly welcomed

My Nan owns her own home. Although, my uncle believes that if social services get involved and put a charge on her home that they can only threaten this and cant legally make you pay back charges when she dies. Im quite sure this isn't true.

He also seems to think that if we cant get access to her finances to pay for the care that social services pay the fees. This option scares me.....they have told us that they will pay standard fee's but many 'good' homes have a top up fee. If we choose a better home that costs more, as my nan lacks capacity it therefore makes it our choice of home and we would have to pay the additional costs ourselves , crazy!

My uncle managed to become the appointee to get her pension but i know he couldn't get power of attorney because he has been bankrupt and has a huge tax bill. Are the rules the same for court appointed deputy? If so it may make the process easier.

Will ring CoP first thing Monday and keep you updated with any progress.

His complicated financial past (is he a discharged bankrupt? means that he's unlikely to be considered for a Deputyship, and what he needs to understand is that if he objects to you applying for it then the court might well decide to appoint a panel Deputy, someone from outside of the family, and they don't work for free!

So do consider applying yourself asap, and note the need for urgency on the forms (aren't these things always urgent!) as this may speed the process up a bit. The Deputyship I have for my aunt-in-law took just 3 months and it's possible to get an interim order, although I've never done this as the Deputyship I have for my mum came through just in time.

By the way, the forms aren't too bad and mainly deal with very obvious issues like names, addresses, dates of birth and assets. If you employ a solicitor you will still have to supply him or her with this information and they will be filling out the same form.

As you will possibly have to either rent out (maybe to your uncle) or sell the property, make sure you ask the court specifically to be allowed to do this. There's a section for this, for asking the court what you want them to allow you to do, and if you say simply something like 'manage her assets' there may be exclusions and you'll then have to go back to court to be able to rent out or sell.

As soon as she goes into care, even without a Deputyship, I would inform the utility companies etc that she's no longer living there and not responsible for the bills. Give your uncle's name. You might run into trouble without a PoA or Deputyship, but it's worth a call or email. And obviously the moment you are able to legally, stop the running of the house being her responsibility while the uncle is still living there.

As Fifi said, it's all quite complicated as far as LA funding and disregarding properties for various reasons, so that will have to be untangled too, and if they disregard the house because of his age or carer status then the property will not have to be sold. However there is a moral argument here too because it remains her asset and if liquidating it would give her access to better care then I'm not sure, as Deputy, you should be allowing your uncle to continue to live there. I'd get advice on that but my gut feeling is that her best interests have to come first.