need help fast

[taskerrose]

Its a long story which will try to be brief
I recently lost my mum to cancer four weeks ago and she died intestate so everything went to dad. dad was admitted to hospital following a fall 5 weeks ago( he has dementia) and we had to place him in a nursing home which he went to yesterday.
My older sister during the last 6 weeks has become more and more difficult to deal with she seems to think that even though there is not a power of attorney or deputy in place for dad because she has been named next of kin on the hospital forms etc she can do what she likes with dads money. She refuses to inform my younger sister and myself on any information regarding dads ( and mum ) care plans etc. She tried to get me barred from mum funeral all because I dared to ask her for a copy of all paperwork regarding dads details as I suggested we needed to discuss what to do next . ( she has the bank cards and knows the pin number ) she will not let us have the keys to my parents flat to pack up and it has come to the point where she refuses to talk to me at all and if she has to she becomes very argumentive and agressive towards me and my other sister,
She doesnt work and seems to have a lot of money lately, she has admitted she has sold some of dads furniture but refuses to comfirm what she has done with the money.
Dad had some money in his wallet which he had all the time at the hospital ( older sister has not visited him for four weeks,) the money was there on the Monday following a visit from older sister on the Wed the money was missing, she denied taking it and my younger sister and I had to report the loss to the nursing staff.
My younger sister and I have real concerns regarding my older sister actions and think she is using the bank account for her own use.
I have spoken to dads sw regarding my fears and she promptly discussed it with my older sister which naturally resulted in a huge row. I am supposed to be talking to the finace department on Friday who I want to act under the vunerable adults act. My point is I dont trust that they will deal with it confidentaly like the sw didnt how do we deal with them? I want dads money protected there is no power of attornery or deputyship for dad money and have no idea what we are supposed to do can we sell dads stuff on his behalf or do we store it until paperwork is registered by the way I feel we should all be named or it should be a court appointed person. so confused have no idea how to deal with this can anyone advise.

 

[Chippy01]

Hi I think you need an Independent Mental Capacity advocate (IMCA) - your dad's capacity with regards to finance (at least) needs to be assessed and the social worker should know how to get this done or any health professional i think. Once it is assessed that your dad lacks capacity you can ask for an IMCA who will (by law) act in your dad's best interests and if necessary it may be that he needs Court of Protection. I don't know any more detail but hope that helps. Professionals involved should know how to help with this but there may also be a local advocacy service who will help you. Good luck

Its a long story which will try to be brief
I recently lost my mum to cancer four weeks ago and she died intestate so everything went to dad. dad was admitted to hospital following a fall 5 weeks ago( he has dementia) and we had to place him in a nursing home which he went to yesterday.
My older sister during the last 6 weeks has become more and more difficult to deal with she seems to think that even though there is not a power of attorney or deputy in place for dad because she has been named next of kin on the hospital forms etc she can do what she likes with dads money. She refuses to inform my younger sister and myself on any information regarding dads ( and mum ) care plans etc. She tried to get me barred from mum funeral all because I dared to ask her for a copy of all paperwork regarding dads details as I suggested we needed to discuss what to do next . ( she has the bank cards and knows the pin number ) she will not let us have the keys to my parents flat to pack up and it has come to the point where she refuses to talk to me at all and if she has to she becomes very argumentive and agressive towards me and my other sister,
She doesnt work and seems to have a lot of money lately, she has admitted she has sold some of dads furniture but refuses to comfirm what she has done with the money.
Dad had some money in his wallet which he had all the time at the hospital ( older sister has not visited him for four weeks,) the money was there on the Monday following a visit from older sister on the Wed the money was missing, she denied taking it and my younger sister and I had to report the loss to the nursing staff.
My younger sister and I have real concerns regarding my older sister actions and think she is using the bank account for her own use.
I have spoken to dads sw regarding my fears and she promptly discussed it with my older sister which naturally resulted in a huge row. I am supposed to be talking to the finace department on Friday who I want to act under the vunerable adults act. My point is I dont trust that they will deal with it confidentaly like the sw didnt how do we deal with them? I want dads money protected there is no power of attornery or deputyship for dad money and have no idea what we are supposed to do can we sell dads stuff on his behalf or do we store it until paperwork is registered by the way I feel we should all be named or it should be a court appointed person. so confused have no idea how to deal with this can anyone advise.

 

[FifiMo]

Unless your sister has a joint account with your dad then legally she is committing theft and fraud by using his cards. I would make an appointment at dad's bank and you and your younger tell them that you are concerned about your sister stealing from your dad. The bank will then probably freeze his account until someone has gone to the court of protection to obtain Deputyship for him. I would suggest that both of you to apply as joint deputies (joint and severally is what you want). You can get the forms online. I would speak to the bank ASAP before everything disappears.

Your sister seems to misunderstand what she is entitled to do and see quite frankly. The best thing for you and your other sister to do is become better informed. If you need any more help or information then just give us a shout.

Fiona

 

[taskerrose]

Spoke to bank who said dad would need to sign to allow us to freeze his account they suggested getting dr to witness this total waste of time dad can not remember what was said to him the day before it took a whole week for him to remember mum had died even after the funeral . before could ask dr to arrange assessment he was given his place in home I work full time and have only just gone back to work after sick time I do have Friday off and will talk to financial team then hope they can give me some good advise on what to do everything is too much too fast. Older sister is planning on moving away on Friday as well maybe then we can get access to flat and see what is going on wish I was wrong but gut and past events dealing with older sister tell me I am right

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[Noorza]

https://www.gov.uk/court-of-protection


Give these people a ring, it's the court of protection they should be able to give you more advice. Without the Power of Attorney it is likely your older sister could be breaking the law. When I went to the bank to advise them my sister had set up internet banking they wanted me to call the police as even that is classed as a domestic fraud.

I have been told the police have especially trained officers to deal with financial abuse of the elderly as there are so many sensitive issues surrounding it. It might be worth a call to enquire.

 

[Saffie]

Spoke to bank who said dad would need to sign to allow us to freeze his account

That sounds totally opposite to what banks usually do when they suspect a client is suffering from dementia. However, I guess they might be thinking that they only have your word for it that your Dad is, hence the request for a request from your father and a Dr's signature.
That does sound to be your best way forward. All it would require is for the Dr to write that your father is suffering from dementia and sign it if your father is not able to sign it himself. If he is able to, just type out the request and ask your father to sign it and ask the GP to witness it. Your father doesn't have to remember anything at all.
It would save a lot of bother for you I think.

 

[Long Tom]

The bank staff are making it up as they go along, I think

I do not think there are specific guidelines for banks to follow - this needs to change.

If the bank has reason to suspect a customer if being financially abused and cannot act to protect themselves, I would put it to them that they have a duty to the customer intervene and freeze the account. The GP giving a statement to the bank in person, by e-mail or by fax really should satisfy the manager. They should say that your dad has a diagnosed condition that affects his capacity and there are grounds to question his capacity on financial affairs. Don't bother with anyone else in the branch. Your dad signing anything should then be immaterial (and taking the signature as 'proof' of consent to anything, knowing his capacity is questioned, would be very poor practice anyway).

You could also try calling the bank's normal phoneline and asking for their fraud dept. Get someone in the bank to help you do what they need done. I have advised this before but cannot promise it works. But it SHOULD!
Best wishes
LT

 

[nitram]

"...I do not think there are specific guidelines for banks to follow..."

The BBA has issued a document, it leaves it to the bank's discretion, however as the bank has a duty to protect the funds of the account holder the default position should be to freeze the account.

In England and Wales, if one party to the joint account
loses capacity to operate their account, banks and
building societies will use their discretion to determine
whether or not to temporarily restrict the operation of
the account to essential transactions only (for example,
living expenses and medical/residential care bills for
both parties) until a deputy has been appointed or a
power of attorney registered.

<Different rules for rest of UK>

www.bba.org.uk/download/2023

 

[taskerrose]

update
the bank yesterday have confirmed that dads money has gone they passed it over to the fraud team and have blocked the bank cards they have been really understanding of the situation they are allowing a temporary card to be issued for my younger sister to use should we need it ( not now no money left ) as to freeze the account would mean that bills would not be paid and to allow us to deposit any money we have for dad. No doubt we will need to talk to the police etc regarding this problem was mum gave pin no to joint account to Older sister the week before she died. She failed to inform the bank of mums passing and lied to us telling us she had done do. We have now done this hopefully the bank will view it as stolen as from mums death and deal with it accordly that way we might get some money back. So now just have to wait and see what happens we have been advised not to confront the older sister untill the fraud team have done what they need to do if at all but to let the legal department deal with it. I suppose they dont want my sister to do a runner. The bank took it very seriously and didnt try to fob us off as soon as we mentioned the forms we had been given they apologised stating that we should not have been given that route. Just shows how sometime big organisations get it right.We are totally devesated how anyone let alone a family member do that is beyound our understanding. Dads pension is due in the next week so let see if she tries to withdraw that as well thank god she wont be able to get it this time. Still waiting for sw to contact us if no contact tomorrow morning will ask to speak to a manager and complain.

 

[Norfolkgirl]

update
the bank yesterday have confirmed that dads money has gone they passed it over to the fraud team and have blocked the bank cards they have been really understanding of the situation they are allowing a temporary card to be issued for my younger sister to use should we need it ( not now no money left ) as to freeze the account would mean that bills would not be paid and to allow us to deposit any money we have for dad. No doubt we will need to talk to the police etc regarding this problem was mum gave pin no to joint account to Older sister the week before she died. She failed to inform the bank of mums passing and lied to us telling us she had done do. We have now done this hopefully the bank will view it as stolen as from mums death and deal with it accordly that way we might get some money back. So now just have to wait and see what happens we have been advised not to confront the older sister untill the fraud team have done what they need to do if at all but to let the legal department deal with it. I suppose they dont want my sister to do a runner. The bank took it very seriously and didnt try to fob us off as soon as we mentioned the forms we had been given they apologised stating that we should not have been given that route. Just shows how sometime big organisations get it right.We are totally devesated how anyone let alone a family member do that is beyound our understanding. Dads pension is due in the next week so let see if she tries to withdraw that as well thank god she wont be able to get it this time. Still waiting for sw to contact us if no contact tomorrow morning will ask to speak to a manager and complain.

Just goes to show SW was just as bad at 'helping' you!

 

[taskerrose]

I must admit I have a low opinion of sw ad I see it every day at the hospital dragging their heels and not communicating with the nursing staff re their clients I did speak to her and following a couple of ooohs and silent pause she confirmed that it would be logged as an alert so we will see if they follow guide lines now. I did point out that had she listened to my concerns two weeks ago dad might still have some money left. Next step is to talk to age concern to find out what we can do they did say NOT to sell anything of dads yet another thing big sis has done its a right mess I feel awful shopping my sis but keep telling myself its dad which is the most important person here thank god she cannot get more money out of him unless she sells something else and I wouldn't put it past her. When I went to visit dad today she turned up couldn't stay had to leave as all I wanted to do was punch her lights out not good I know but it would have been so satisfying sorry if that makes me out bad but its how I feel at the moment.

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[FifiMo]

Congratulations with what you have achieved. Sticks in the throat doesn't it that a family member could do something like this.

Did she leave town? Do you have access to the flat now? If you do, and you have a phone with a camera or a digital camera then I would photograph everything. That way you can prove that something was previously there if she decides to sell something.

Fiona

 

[starryuk]

Hi Taskerrose,
I am shocked and sorry that your sister has acted this way but very impressed with how you are handling it. I just can't imagine how you are coping with the anger you must be feeling

Starry

 

[taskerrose]

No she hasn't to my knowledge gone yet and I thought the same we would have to photo everything and log it all luckily my you get sister is reasonable and had no trouble with my suggestion that whatever papers if any we find I photocopy and keep in a separate file that way we both have copies should we need details and not have to rely on phoning one person we have both been left with trust issues not surprisingly and want to avoid more heartache its bad enough with loosing mum and dad having dementia I really miss both of them right now

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[Norfolkgirl]

No she hasn't to my knowledge gone yet and I thought the same we would have to photo everything and log it all luckily my you get sister is reasonable and had no trouble with my suggestion that whatever papers if any we find I photocopy and keep in a separate file that way we both have copies should we need details and not have to rely on phoning one person we have both been left with trust issues not surprisingly and want to avoid more heartache its bad enough with loosing mum and dad having dementia I really miss both of them right now

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How will you be able to gain access to your parents flat if you don't have a key?

 

[taskerrose]

If we can't get keys from older sis will just tell the council she has taken them and let them deal with her they will have a master set have no idea if she has started paperwork to give notice cant do anything until Monday and it will all fall to younger sis (she dont work )to deal with as I have to be at work and cannot get anymore time off as I used up all my leave etc before mum died so once again having to rely on others so frustrated


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[Norfolkgirl]

If we can't get keys from older sis will just tell the council she has taken them and let them deal with her they will have a master set have no idea if she has started paperwork to give notice cant do anything until Monday and it will all fall to younger sis (she dont work )to deal with as I have to be at work and cannot get anymore time off as I used up all my leave etc before mum died so once again having to rely on others so frustrated


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Good luck and keep us posted as its important to hear of your experiences of these types of scenarios as there are many of us with similar ones, especially where Social Services and Police are concerned.

 

[taskerrose]

Yet another frustrating week dealing with this saga spoke to sw regarding sister not allowing access sw suggested trying again to go to flat as she will talk to sister stating we have the same rights as her re access so on sat off we go not only sister walked away refused to give key but warden also refused us access so a very curt complaint to the housing office was sent demanding action warden way out of her remit she is allowing sister to live in flat and have various people stay of cause dad has not allowed this as he has no idea of what is happening. She is now saying ti sw not leaving untill 6 jan. Only she wont as she no longer is able to access the account as we got it blocked Bank confirmed worst now have statement as proof of fraud and theft of dads money by sister updated sw and to top all this sister reckons she has reported us to police and tried to get nh to block us seeing dad saying we are going to be arrested still waiting for said visit hell I would love it save us having to report theft on monday . Have to do it as bank cannot investigate without a crime report so all in all a **** weekend . I feel as if we have hit a brick wall and no one in authority is taking action to protect dad (have given sw a couple of days to inform us of what action they intent to take over this reminding her of their own rules regarding safegaurding issues)by the way has anyone tried to contact sw or gov departments at weekend nothing no support just leave message till office opens what no crisis happens at weekends then sorry to rant but so angry and frustrated yet another night with no asleep. Oh well Monday tomorrow can start the battle all over again

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[optocarol]

Yet another frustrating week dealing with this saga spoke to sw regarding sister not allowing access sw suggested trying again to go to flat as she will talk to sister stating we have the same rights as her re access so on sat off we go not only sister walked away refused to give key but warden also refused us access so a very curt complaint to the housing office was sent demanding action warden way out of her remit she is allowing sister to live in flat and have various people stay of cause dad has not allowed this as he has no idea of what is happening. She is now saying ti sw not leaving untill 6 jan. Only she wont as she no longer is able to access the account as we got it blocked Bank confirmed worst now have statement as proof of fraud and theft of dads money by sister updated sw and to top all this sister reckons she has reported us to police and tried to get nh to block us seeing dad saying we are going to be arrested still waiting for said visit hell I would love it save us having to report theft on monday . Have to do it as bank cannot investigate without a crime report so all in all a **** weekend . I feel as if we have hit a brick wall and no one in authority is taking action to protect dad (have given sw a couple of days to inform us of what action they intent to take over this reminding her of their own rules regarding safegaurding issues)by the way has anyone tried to contact sw or gov departments at weekend nothing no support just leave message till office opens what no crisis happens at weekends then sorry to rant but so angry and frustrated yet another night with no asleep. Oh well Monday tomorrow can start the battle all over again

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Can't be any help as I'm in New Zealand, but if you're still awake, wanted to sympathise. It's awful and awful when your own sister seems to have no concern at all for your dad and no conscience. Hope you make some progress in the morning.

Would hug if I could!