My Mum thinks a neighbour is "groping" her - any ideas or advice welcome

DidsDerby

Registered User
Sep 13, 2013
4
0
East Midlands
I live 120 miles away from my Mum who has mixed dementia (early stages) so I rely on her friends and neighbours to keep an eye on her and help her out. However a short while a go she said that a neighbour's husband has been cuddling her and feeling her breasts. She has had delusions (about people coming into the house and stealing money and people, now dead, who are visiting) so I am not quite sure what to do. I rely on these people as my eyes and ears and they are very kind and caring people who put up with my mum visiting them every day, but I am concerned about the safeguarding issue. I have told her to stay away if it is an issue but she still keeps going and putting herself in situations where she is alone with this man whom she accuses. I can't say anything directly to the couple as I don't want to cause any problems between them - all people concerned are over 80 by the way!

Any body got an ideas about how to solve this one?:rolleyes:
 

copsham

Registered User
Oct 11, 2012
586
0
Oxfordshire
It never ceases to amaze me what issues dementia brings. There are always new things to deal with, get over one issue and another arises!

Can you talk to the man in general thanking him for his support and saying it is extra hard for a man showing care for a female neighbour as they have to be so careful that there are no allegations etc etc If he is doing something this might be heard as a warning if he is not doing anything it is just your concerned and caring nature?.
 

acacia

Registered User
Jan 15, 2013
66
0
I would have a word with him and say that due to the illness she is a bit wary of seeing men on her own say that its worrying her and you would be really grateful if he could let the friends and neighbours know. I am sure he will respond to this as doing something positive for her. and you will have peace of mind. Acacia.
 

Katrine

Registered User
Jan 20, 2011
2,837
0
England
Can you afford to ignore the possibility of it being true?

What an upsetting and embarrassing dilemma:

  • Mum might be imagining it completely
  • Mum might have seen him show physical affection to his wife and confabulated that it was herself
  • Mum might have misinterpreted him e.g. taking her arm to guide her and accidentally brushing her breast
  • He might have done it

From anecdotes I have been told by family members, some respectable elderly men do take the opportunity to grope women if they can get away with it. I do not wish to offend the majority of men, and those on TP are likely to be kind and caring types who would not do this, but it does seem to happen, however bizarre that might seem. As a woman, I would have to be attracted to the person before I might act upon my feelings, but gropers seem to be magnetically attracted to the body part without necessarily considering the person attached to it! :rolleyes:

My widowed grandmother in her 60's was visiting a couple where the wife was her friend. The wife went out of the room to make tea. The man got up, walked behind my grandmother's chair, leaned over, and gave her boobs a good going over! :eek: She was frozen with shock, and just then wifie returned, so nothing was said. He was cool as a cucumber, and acted as if nothing had happened. She often told my mother that she could not understand why she didn't shout "Hey, get off!" or something stronger. One reason was that it was a completely unexpected assault, and the other was that she didn't want to upset her friend (who probably wouldn't have believed her).

Someone else I know was groped by her BIL whenever he was left alone in the room with her. He also used to suggest a quick bunk-up when his wife went to the shops. He would chase her round the room laughing, but she was afraid of him. He would never have forced her, but he wouldn't stop talking about it, however much she asked him not to. She really doesn't know if he would have gone through with it if she'd said "All right, let's do it", and I think knowing the person concerned that it was a kind of teasing/bullying of someone who was timid and was also separated from her husband so he thought she might be missing the comforts of the marital bed. I also think he thought that somehow it was OK because she was his wife's sister. That might be OK in some tribal cultures, but not in England! Why did he think he could get away with it? Well he did, didn't he? He relied on her being too embarrassed and afraid of causing a rift with her sister.

A friend of mine was repeatedly groped by her FIL. This started to happen when she had been married for about 15 years, so it wasn't as if he had always done it. The trigger might have been her having her younger children, with him seeing swollen breasts, or thinking that she must have had sex to create the babies. Who knows. :confused: He didn't actually touch her sexually. He would hug and kiss her, but hold on too long, even when she struggled to get away. Or he would brush against her in doorways, or hold her hand and stroke it when she passed him a cup of tea. Ughh! Creepy!!! :mad:

Her FIL denied everything when confronted by letter, but continued the behaviour. He was very cunning, sometimes waiting for days for a suitable opportunity. His greatest pleasure was to do it in front of witnesses, especially his wife, who apparently found it amusing and would sneer at her DIL saying she was over-sensitive and imagining things. It was a ghastly situation for this friend because the behaviour was not overtly sexual, so he always had plausible deniability.

My friend's family really didn't believe her and it caused a lot of tension. Then one day her FIL did it to his teenage grand-daughter and she realised what her mum had been complaining about. Once her father found out, he took steps to supervise his dad thereafter, but sadly the emotional damage had already been done to his wife.

The reason why I am writing all this is that if this man is groping your Mum she will get more and more upset and insecure, being at the mercy of someone who she depends on for support. I don't know how you are going to tackle it to find out if there is any truth in it, but I personally would not take the risk of it being just her imagination. You can see from my examples above that a groper's wife may have learned to ignore what she sees, or may even collude in the behaviour as a kind of power trip.

I sincerely hope that these people are blameless, but old age does not rule out abusive behaviour. Remember that vile old DJ that was in the news last year? Personally I always thought he was a cold, creepy, ugly sexual predator, but not to the extent that seems to have been the reality. I remember as a schoolgirl being asked if I wanted to go to an event at Stoke Manderville where I would meet him and declining the offer with alacrity.

I really, really hope that this is all in your mum's imagination and that you can find a way to set her mind at rest. You can only really do that if you are 100% sure that there isn't any funny business going on.
 
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Jessbow

Registered User
Mar 1, 2013
5,680
0
Midlands
I'd be absolutely open and honest with the neighbour's wife. . Do it in the third person, it will be enough to scare him off ( I hope) knowing that you know IF its true, and happening.

''I think you need to know Mum is having some very strange thoughts, she's thinking someone is groping her! She a bit upset about it, and I'd hate her to accuse *Bob* and make him feel uncomfortable , as you are so good to her. Would he mind staying away for a day or two Blah blah ''.........Then laugh..... '' she's trying to recall his name''

Keep it lighthearted ( easier said than done if you do have suspicions that its true)

Only worry is, it gives him ( if he is) carte blanche to carry on, if he thinks you are thinking she's making it up.

How likely, Honestly, do you think its true?
 
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meme

Registered User
Aug 29, 2011
1,953
0
London
what a dilemma for you and being so far away makes it all the harder...could you say that as mum has been convinced people are stealing from her and other "things" happening ... you had a hidden camera installed for a period, and are about to review the footage when you have time... ....and let that sink in , if the neighbour is guilty it may stop him in his tracks...
 

Mamsgirl

Registered User
Jun 2, 2013
635
0
Melbourne, Australia
Heavens, talk about Catch 22.

Immediate reaction is that if a person with dementia alleges abuse, fact has to be separated from confabulation without too much fear of offending those accused. After all, to be reliable as your eyes and ears, these good people need to be willing to make allowances for and not judge, some pretty eye opening behaviour.

This is such a difficult situation and I truly feel for you, but even at the risk of outraged and estranged neighbours, there doesn't seem much choice.

As acacia posted broaching the subject without accusation might be all that's needed, another possible approach along these lines is "I'm worried about Mum, she said someone had been cuddling her too intimately and making her feel uncomfortable/frightened/confused, have either of you noticed anyone being particularly affectionate? It's so awkward to talk about etc."

Good luck!
 

gringo

Registered User
Feb 1, 2012
1,188
0
UK.
I thought that, after one and a half years on this forum, I was un-shockable. Not so. Katrine’s post has certainly shocked me. I note that she says that men on TP are likely to be caring types who would not do this. But she goes on to say, it does seem to happen, even respectable elderly men will do this "if they think they can get away with it"! Indeed she tells of three cases, of groping, known to her. Each one of which is dreadful. I must have moved in a very protected circle, never having come across a single one.
Less than 20% of the TP membership is male, and I am accustomed to being ignored or dammed with faint praise. But I am not happy that we should be viewed as potential gropers, even though it is thought that by virtue of being on here,and therefore caring, we are unlikely to succumb to these urges. We seem to be moving towards Mumsnet.
I have every sympathy with DidsDerby and her predicament. Quite obviously she must find the truth of the matter. If the neighbour’s husband is guilty he must be confronted and stopped. If he is innocent, he must be cleared. The Mother’s safety must be put ahead of potential hurt feelings. If he is innocent, I can’t believe that he would not understand, and approve, the need to get to the truth.
 

Katrine

Registered User
Jan 20, 2011
2,837
0
England
I knew I would offend somebody. :eek: I have absolutely no idea how widespread this behaviour might be, I only described examples known to me. With respect, it is more likely that women tell other women about these things rather than telling a man. By the nature of this sort of covert abuse I would be very surprised if a groper discussed his hobby with anyone else, so it isn't surprising that you, as a man, would be shocked to hear that these things take place in respectable homes.

My friend's husband refused to believe her for over 2 years. He didn't want it to be true about his father, he had never seen him doing it, therefore his wife must be 'over-sensitive' or 'misunderstanding an affectionate gesture'. A woman in this situation is shocked, embarrassed, questions whether she has indeed misunderstood, hopes it was a one-off event, etc. etc. When it involves abuse by a friend or family member she may be too afraid of the effect on other relationships to disclose the details and stop the abuse.

Anyway, this is not about me. I hope that I have not scared the OP. We do not know in her case whether her mum has been groped anyway. I say 'groped'. We use this word, or 'touched up' or other euphemisms. In fact when this behaviour takes place it is an assault, and in the case of a vulnerable adult it is abuse.

Gringo, I do not think that all men are potential abusers, with the kindly caring instincts of some keeping their bestial urges in check. Rather I think, from what little I know of the specific abusers in the examples I gave, that someone who indulges in this behaviour is a selfish egotist, focused on their own needs to the extent that they do not care if they hurt someone else. They will find an excuse to justify it. So someone like that is, IMHO, less likely to care enough about vulnerable people to be a member of a support forum. But what do I know?
 

Butter

Registered User
Jan 19, 2012
6,737
0
NeverNeverLand
In the interests of fairness, I should include the information that my brother was the victim of a predatory female, working in the carehome where our mother was dying.

Unfortunately, all human beings are capable of abuse of all kinds.
 

Mamsgirl

Registered User
Jun 2, 2013
635
0
Melbourne, Australia
I thought that, after one and a half years on this forum, I was un-shockable. Not so. Katrine’s post has certainly shocked me. I note that she says that men on TP are likely to be caring types who would not do this. But she goes on to say, it does seem to happen, even respectable elderly men will do this "if they think they can get away with it"! Indeed she tells of three cases, of groping, known to her. Each one of which is dreadful. I must have moved in a very protected circle, never having come across a single one.
Less than 20% of the TP membership is male, and I am accustomed to being ignored or dammed with faint praise. But I am not happy that we should be viewed as potential gropers, even though it is thought that by virtue of being on here,and therefore caring, we are unlikely to succumb to these urges. We seem to be moving towards Mumsnet.
I have every sympathy with DidsDerby and her predicament. Quite obviously she must find the truth of the matter. If the neighbour’s husband is guilty he must be confronted and stopped. If he is innocent, he must be cleared. The Mother’s safety must be put ahead of potential hurt feelings. If he is innocent, I can’t believe that he would not understand, and approve, the need to get to the truth.

Hello Gringo,

Afraid Katrine's store of anecdotal information is borne out by research into sexual violence. The following fact sheet is on Australia, and is similar to UK prevalence studies I've read:

http://www.casa.org.au/casa_pdf.php?document=statistics

It's such a shame when people such as yourself feel tarred with the same hideous brush as perpetrators because you share the same gender. The effect on victims of sexual violence is of paramount importance though, and it's only by awareness of and willingness to talk about it that we have much hope of changing the dynamic.


Hi DidsDerby,

Hope our robust discussion hasn't scared you off. Our sometimes strong opinions are universally underpinned by great concern and goodwill.
Toni x
 

gringo

Registered User
Feb 1, 2012
1,188
0
UK.
Hello Mamsgirl,
Thank-you. I read the fact sheet, and having read it, I then went on to look at the statistics for the UK. and other parts of the world.
What saddening and depressing reading it makes.

Katrine,
I owe you an apology. I almost feel I have apologise for being a man. I have been sadly ignorant about this. I thought Dementia itself was as bad as it got, but to have to contend with this as well is so awful. What a rotten world we live in.

DidsDerby,
I didn’t ignore your problem, but I didn’t treat it with the importance it deserves either. I am so sorry you have this worry on top of everything else. I fear you must confront this man, at whatever cost, to ensure your Mother’s safety.
 

sistermillicent

Registered User
Jan 30, 2009
2,949
0
If your mum is telling you these things about the man, maybe she is telling other people also and it could make life very difficult for this couple. I think you could maybe tell them in a very sensitive way and say you are worried about what your mum may be saying locally, that you feel just terrible having to broach this but you don't want local rumours starting.
It is not going to be easy for you. I think this site will support you though whatever you decide to do.

For the record the only abuse i have ever suffered has been at the hands of a woman. She appeared to be the most charming and lovely person. I could not speak out because I knew no one would believe me. It has left me with a deep suspicion of people who seem charming and lovely, hardly surprising really.
 

DidsDerby

Registered User
Sep 13, 2013
4
0
East Midlands
Thanks for your advice

Thank you all for your comments. I think it is right that I can't afford to ignore the issue (as someone pointed out we have to think of all those who have been laughed at and disbelieved re Jimmy Saville, and co.). I shall broach the subject with Mum when I next go down and see if she mentions the issue again - probably try a few times to see if I get the same comment as before (although obviously I can't rely on her for accurate information). I shall also mention it to the neighbours in a roundabout way as suggested and hope that if there is something going on that will be enough to warn off any further "action". The strange thing is that Mum goes to the neighbours house - the wife is housebound due to a stroke - never the other way round - and then seems happy to get herself into situations where she is alone with the man - picking apples in the garden, looking at the flowers and recounts to me what a lovely time she has had - really bizarre. Someone has suggested to me that perhaps he reminds her of someone else who did make advances to her in the past - I just don't know - but as everyone seems to think I can't afford to ignore it and brush it under the carpet. Thank you all for your considered opinions!