My gran and POA

Discussion in 'Legal and financial issues' started by Kim2610, Jul 4, 2018.

  1. Kim2610

    Kim2610 New member

    Jul 4, 2018
    2
    Hi everyone newbie here ,

    Really hoping you guys can give me some advice ! I have a situation with my gran and her daughter having POA . My gran has the early stages of vascular dementia . She lives alone and has carers in . Considering strokes in November she is doing amazing :) . My problem is she has been asking for access to her bank account since December ! She has been told she cannot go to the bank and her daughter has all her books and cards . I have been told that a lawyer told her she was only to have £10 loose change at a time and today was told the doctor now said she has only to have £5 on her at anytime ?!!! Now surely this cannot be right ? She is completely aware of what’s going on . She Gave up driving last year and relys on family to take her out but even on days out to shops etc she never has money to buy anything ! She has started telling other family members and the carers what’s been going on .
    Is this correct that because the daughter has power of attorney she can completely cut her Mum off from her own bank ? She told us we couldn’t take our gran to the bank because there’s a note on the system not to give her money as she is now POA ? She’s living alone independently I’m struggling to see how this is fair on my gran ? I just want advice before we take this further . Thank you for reading abc for any advice you all can give :) x
     
  2. karaokePete

    karaokePete Volunteer Host

    Jul 23, 2017
    3,215
    Male
    Cyprus
    Hello @Kim2610, welcome to TP. I hope you find the forum a friendly, informative and supportive place.
    The situation you outline seems beyond the pale to me, especially if your gran still has capacity. I simply cannot believe that either a lawyer or doctor would say such things. Are you sure of the facts?
    In any case, here's a link to a great AS Booklet that gives a lot of info, including details on financial matters, POA etc., that you may find to be a good read http://alzheimerweb.prod.acquia-sit...actsheets/living-with-dementia-managing-money

    May I suggest that a chat with the experts on the help line would also be useful, details as follows

    National Dementia Helpline
    0300 222 11 22
    Our helpline advisers are here for you.
    Helpline opening hours:
    Monday to Wednesday 9am – 8pm
    Thursday and Friday 9am – 5pm
    Saturday and Sunday 10am – 4pm

    On a final note, you can follow this next link to check for services in your area, which may include an advocacy service as that could help with ensuring rights, https://www.alzheimers.org.uk/find-support-near-you

    Best of luck to you and your gran - it's good that she has you in her corner as a person with dementia should be helped to be as independent as possible.
     
  3. Kim2610

    Kim2610 New member

    Jul 4, 2018
    2
    Thankyou so much for your information . Im not mistaken I’m not saying it’s fact as I can’t quite believe it myself but just what we are being told , I have the text messages etc with what has been said and ppl there with me when conversations took place . We have left it this long thinking it must all be correct . But my gran in getting very frustrated by it all so we need to get it sorted out for her sake . We are all going to sit down and talk it through . See what’s what . Thank you again . Glad I found this forum :)
     
  4. Amethyst59

    Amethyst59 Registered User

    Jul 3, 2017
    5,679
    Female
    Kent
    Hello, welcome to the forum from me too! My husband has vascular dementia and I have POA ...but it is only used when he lacks capacity. I don’t know the legal position, but my experience has been that there have been times when we have gone to the bank together and he has dealt with his account alone. Just recently we instructed a solicitor to sell his house...and the solicitor asked him whether he wanted to answer the questions, or if he preferred me to. In short, if your Gran goes to the bank, with or without you, I don’t think she would be refused her own money. The other thing that you might want to consider is approaching the Office of Protective Guardian, if you have a serious concern about an attorney.
    https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/office-of-the-public-guardian
     
  5. Shedrech

    Shedrech Volunteer Moderator

    Dec 15, 2012
    6,525
    Yorkshire
    hello @Kim2610
    welcome from me too
    I think it's good idea that you talk this over with the Attorney, your gran's daughter
    if the LPA for finance and property has been registered with your gran's bank then the Attorney is the one who now manages your gran's accounts, and it is correct that (in most cases) the person no longer has access to their bank accounts
    it may be that your gran has been spending her money unwisely, or been the victim of scams, and so the Attorney has taken control of her spending, making sure that she has everything else she needs already paid for, so the small amount of cash your gran is given is her 'pocket money' - and the 'fib' about what the lawyer/doctor has said may be a 'love lie' to try to give your gran a reason for the situation - obsessions about money are not at all unusual, and difficult to deal with at times
    your gran has quite a high level of care needs if she has daily home care visits, and it has been decided she is no longer capable of driving safely
    many folk with dementia do complain to others about how they can't do some things and are treated in some ways and it's not necessarily how things really are - and they are also very good at going into 'hostess mode' with visitors, where they put all their energy into appearing to be able to function well; but they can only sustain this for the visit and fall back into their more confused state after - it may be that this is what is happening with your gran - it's often not easy for those not with the person for extended periods to realise exactly what their condition truly is
    so it's worth having a chat with your gran's daughter just to mention that you are concerned about what your gran has been saying (rather than accuse her of something) - she may well be able to reassure you - she may well be glad that someone else is interested enough to talk with her and be glad of some help
    and it may be that something untoward is going on that needs to be addressed, but at least you'll have given your gran's daughter the opportunity to fill you in (though do appreciate that as Attorney she is under no obligation to share information with anyone else, any more than your gran, or you or anyone, would have to explain to another adult how we manage our affairs)
     
  6. Duggies-girl

    Duggies-girl Registered User

    Sep 6, 2017
    993
    I have POA for my dad and have done nothing with it yet but that is because my dad is still able to get out with my help. I take him to the cash point and he keeps his money in his wallet he probably has a couple of hundred pounds in it at the moment. This works for us. I am really totally in control because dad cannot access his money without me there to help him and he also cannot spend it without me there by his side because he cannot get to a shop without me. We go shopping and I pack while dad pays.

    I do it like this because it allows dad to think he is still in total control of his money, it works because I know he has his own money and is not likely to be targeted by scammers unless it is over the phone. I have scratched the 3 numbers off of the back of his debit card so that will not happen. Doorstep scammers are another problem but I don't think it is too likely where dad lives so I have taken a chance with that. His bank runs itself with everything paid by direct debit so I just don't worry about that. I have put his cheque books in a safe place because he is no longer capable of writing a cheque but he could possibly sign one.

    Things may change and I may have to take control of his bank account, I would rather not but it may happen. At the moment I would not like to limit dad to a few pounds in his pocket but that is my choice and it keeps dad happy and I consider it safe. To be honest dad no longer has a clue about money and if he were out and about on his own it would probably be a completely different story and I would have to do things different.

    You need to speak to your grans daughter because she may have done these things for a good reason. Also if anyone were to have a five minute conversation with my dad they would think there was not a lot wrong with him as he appears very sensible but the truth is he is totally reliant on me.
     
  7. Rosettastone57

    Rosettastone57 Registered User

    Oct 27, 2016
    483
    This situation doesn't necessarily mean that something sinister is going on. I am attorney for MIL and I have complete control over her finances. She has no access to her cards or accounts. She had an obsession about money a while back so I gave her £10 in cash to keep in the house. Like your gran my MIL has a high level of care in her own home and is incapable of making appropriate decisions for herself about money. If I had more money in the house she would give to the carers. She also can come over as perfectly capable to those who don't know her. I suspect the story about the doctor or lawyer is a fib to keep her calm and explain why she can't have more money. I use the doctor as a reason why my MIL has carers.
     
  8. Beate

    Beate Registered User

    May 21, 2014
    10,618
    Female
    London
    Kim, no offense but I think you might have been taken in by a person with dementia in hostess mode. Please tread carefully before you believe everything she says and accuse people of behaving inappropriately. Speak to the attorney first.
     
  9. Duggies-girl

    Duggies-girl Registered User

    Sep 6, 2017
    993
    @Rosettastone57 makes a valid point in that her Mil would give the money to the carers. My dad is very generous and would probably do this but as he does not have carers this is not a problem. The few people who do visit him are generally trusted family members and a few old friends and I have no reason to suspect any of them would take advantage of dad.

    I don't think dad would give money to strangers, he saw of the Jehova witnesses quick enough the other day.
     
  10. Sirena

    Sirena Registered User

    Feb 27, 2018
    436
    Female
    When I went to my mother's bank to register the LPA, they asked whether I wanted her to continue to access the account as well, or if I wanted to be the only one with access. I left it that she had access, as she used to go in to her local branch with her carer and take cash out for shopping. So it depends on how the person with the LPA chooses to set up the arrangements. I didn't have any concerns about her being scammed or being profligate with money, but if I did I would have prevented her having access. As others have said, there may be good reasons for what your relatives have done and they could be protecting your gran's best interests.
     
  11. canary

    canary Registered User

    Feb 25, 2014
    7,332
    Female
    South coast
    My OH is still in early stages, has not lost capacity and if you talk to him he sounds as if there is very little wrong with him, yet his decision making skills are appalling and he is very gullible. I discovered that he had been scammed and had given away thousands of pounds from our savings account and would have continued giving away more, so I had to take steps to prevent this. He, of course, did not understand why I did this and complained bitterly of me "taking him over", "controlling him" and "not allowing him access to his money", but I had to do it or there would have been nothing left.

    I have also discovered, from bitter experience, that not everything he tells me is true. There is usually a kernel of truth, but it has been taken out of context, stretched, warped, stuff left out and other things added, so the story he tells is quite different from reality. He himself, is totally convinced it is the truth, though, and even doctors have been taken in.

    Please go and talk to your aunt about this.
     
  12. Normaleila

    Normaleila Registered User

    Jun 4, 2016
    486
    I don't agree. If a person has mental capacity they can still operate a bank account and spend - or waste - money as they wish. In fact, a person with capacity can rescind the POA and choose new attorneys. I do agree that what is needed here is a frank conversation to understand exactly what the situation is.
     
  13. Duggies-girl

    Duggies-girl Registered User

    Sep 6, 2017
    993
    I agree if they still have capacity then yes but how do we decide if a person has capacity. I consider that my dad does not have capacity, he cannot decide on tea or coffee and I have to tell him which notes to pay with I just say one of the brown ones and a blue one or something like that depending on what he has spent but if anyone just dropped in to see him for a little chat he would appear as quiet sensible which he is until he has to make a decision. I suspect that the visitor would consider that dad has capacity.

    If dad wants to buy something daft he is allowed to, I would not stop him. If he wants to give someone some money for a gift then that's fine with me, it is his money and he can do what he wants with it but I still think that he does not have capacity.

    I don't know how it is decided but i do know that my dad does not have a clue what he is doing most of the time. His last words when anyone is leaving is 'do I owe you anything' He is old school and would be horrified to think he was in any kind of debt. When his milk shakes turn up from the chemist he always asks how much he owes me for ordering them, he finds it hard to understand that they are free, he has paid for everything with cash all of his life apart from his mortgage and that is just the way he is. He would never use his card in a shop, he would not know how to, that is why we have to go to the cash point so he can have the cash in his wallet.

    The only reason I took out the POA was in case he had to go in care and if that happened I would have to register at his bank to pay the care home. I doubt I will need to do that now.
     
  14. Rosettastone57

    Rosettastone57 Registered User

    Oct 27, 2016
    483
    I agree with you to a certain extent but sometimes a person's health and well-being is paramount and must override their capacity or not to use their money wisely.
    With my mother-in-law there is a unique set of circumstances which may seem strange to the average person . Long before the dementia diagnosis she has always had a personality disorder one of the characteristics of which is to hoard money excessively she has always had plenty of money so there has never been a problem in spending it. She would deliberately deprive herself of anything to make herself feel better or improve her quality of life. I'm not talking here about large projects such as deciding to put up an extension I'm talking about everyday items that we take for granted . For example when she had a sore eye at one time I suggested buying some Optrex. She refused to buy it or have me buy it because as far as she was concerned it was just too much money to spend on herself. If I or my husband were to buy anything that she would have considered to be not useful she would refuse to pay us back. We couldn't buy anything for her once she became housebound with our own money because we could never guarantee that she would give us the money to reimburse us and we could have been hundreds and hundreds of pounds out of pocket. She would refuse to buy fresh bread only buying the stale bread at reduced prices in the local supermarket. When it became obvious that things were deteriorating towards the dementia route the GP phoned my husband and suggested she have a hot meal service. He had to explain that she would simply refuse to pay for it and would never facilitate the process to even start paying for it. As far as my mother-in-law was concerned she did not deserve anything to make herself feel better. At one stage she was living simply on packets of biscuits and dry bread because she would refuse to pay for anything else to eat.
    So when we finally persuaded her after some length of time to give us power of attorney over finances we could then use that money to get her the services she needed. Now she has a hot meal everyday she has carers in. The roof on the porch has finally been repaired after two years of it constantly flooding because she refused to pay for it. Now she doesn't even ask us about how much money she has left all the anxiety has been taken away from her.
    So yes it may seem that my mother-in-law has capacity and I've actually overruled it but I did it with the best of intentions. If we had not obtained power of attorney my mother-in-law would have starved herself to death by now
     
  15. Sirena

    Sirena Registered User

    Feb 27, 2018
    436
    Female
    I agree with @Duggies-girl that the question of capacity is quite difficult. My mother would still have been considered to have capacity when I started using the LPA - she continued living independently without help (except occasionally from neighbours) for another year. In fact three months after she agreed I should begin using the LPA she was assessed by a social worker as needing no help. Despite appearing to be okay, she was in meltdown with her finances and if I hadn't stepped in she would have had a mountain of unpaid bills. What most people see on the surface may not correspond to what's going on underneath.
     
  16. Beate

    Beate Registered User

    May 21, 2014
    10,618
    Female
    London
    #16 Beate, Jul 6, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2018
    Mental capacity isn't something you have one day and lose the next, unless you're in a coma or something. It often fluctuates for quite some time, and the same person who might be capable to choose their food might not be capable to manage their finances.

    Checks to do could be: Do they know roughly how much they have in the bank or know how to check? Do they know their PIN? Can they use a cash machine? How do they deal with invoices? Do they know how to write a cheque or use their debit or credit card? Can they handle cash and check whether they got the correct amount of change back? Do they buy the same thing repeatedly even though they've got it at home already? Do they know what things should cost? Do they give strangers cash for a bogus roof repair? Do they accuse others of having stolen all their money? Do they hide cash?
     
  17. Rosettastone57

    Rosettastone57 Registered User

    Oct 27, 2016
    483
    Interesting that my MIL would not I believe be able to deal with these questions about finances in anyway. Yet to others who don't know her very well she would appear independent and capable
     
  18. Duggies-girl

    Duggies-girl Registered User

    Sep 6, 2017
    993
    Agree with that, my dad couldn't do any of those things unless I helped him but at the same time he is capable of a sensible conversation with anyone but he would have the same conversation two minutes later. In fact we have the same conversations day after day and he always sounds sensible even to me but every time it is new to him.
     

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