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Mum needs help and my hands are tied.
- Thread starter Alora
- Start date
@Alora My dad insisted he could walk everywhere and he certainly did not need a wheelchair so I didn't tell him I had one. I just kept it in the back of the car and each time we had an appointment I would get the wheelchair out and position it close to the car door. Dad had a struggle to get out of the car and by the time he was out and had taken a step or two he was more than happy to just plonk himself down and make use of the wheelchair that the hospital had kindly left in the carpark in case anyone felt the need to use it.
A bit of subterfuge helps occasionally.
A bit of subterfuge helps occasionally.
Solicitors cannot show wills to third parties including executors. It is likely that the solicitor who drew up the PoAs drew up the will, if there is one. If your mother used a different firm when she was winding up your father's estate it's possible that they drew up a new will for her at the time.
Even if you don't want to do anything about the PoA you could write to the solicitors and tell them that your mother is unlikely to have capacity to make a new will should she approach them (send any reports or letters you have evidencing your mother's dementia). They might not do anything but it would put them on notice and if she approached them to make a new will they would be very wary.
This might not apply in your case but sometimes it's best not to ask the PWD for his/her agreement to something in advance (eg whether s/he will sit in a wheelchair) but just to do it. It might not always work but some people are always resistant to something new or different or if you ask them to agree to something their kneejerk reaction is 'no'.
Even if you don't want to do anything about the PoA you could write to the solicitors and tell them that your mother is unlikely to have capacity to make a new will should she approach them (send any reports or letters you have evidencing your mother's dementia). They might not do anything but it would put them on notice and if she approached them to make a new will they would be very wary.
This might not apply in your case but sometimes it's best not to ask the PWD for his/her agreement to something in advance (eg whether s/he will sit in a wheelchair) but just to do it. It might not always work but some people are always resistant to something new or different or if you ask them to agree to something their kneejerk reaction is 'no'.
I’m sure you will find the wheelchair will be accepted as it will not be possible for your mother to walk in (even though she thinks she can). I did this with my father and he soon realised how easy it was. Good luck and do let us all know how the appointment goes. 
That is true. When I had to clear mums home after she moved into her care home I found out which solicitor she had used to make her will and went to them because I didnt want to get rid of any items that she had bequeathed to someone. The solicitor, however, wouldnt let me see the will nor would she tell me what was in it, even though I was an executor of her will. After mum died her will was released and there was nothing controversial in it at all. She had left a couple of bequests to various people and then the rest was to be divided between my brother and me.
I should have said of course: solicitors cannot show wills to third parties including executors before the person's death.
It's difficult when you have to clear someone's house and you don't know if there are any specific bequests. I am potentially facing this with my friend. I think that a solicitor might be able to say if there are specific bequests without saying who to but I'm not sure. If you had that information you could put those items in storage on the basis that the person would have kept them safe because s/he wanted people to have them after his/her death.
It's difficult when you have to clear someone's house and you don't know if there are any specific bequests. I am potentially facing this with my friend. I think that a solicitor might be able to say if there are specific bequests without saying who to but I'm not sure. If you had that information you could put those items in storage on the basis that the person would have kept them safe because s/he wanted people to have them after his/her death.
Reading this thread again, I'm a bit unclear about whether or not you have seen any (recent) bank statements at your mother's house. Did you see a statement with £400,000 on it or is that what your brother told you she had in savings? If there is a recent statement then it's likely that she still has at least one account with that bank. Even if your brother is not misappropriating her money he is not managing it in her best interests because he is refusing to spend it on the things she needs. Even if your mother tells your brother that she doesn't want carers he is, imo, under a duty to try to persuade her to accept them as she clearly needs them - and that means getting carers in and persisting for a reasonable period, not saying 'I've talked to Mum and she doesn't want them'. That's not good enough. It's shocking that he is perfectly content for your mother to live like this.
Hello Violet Jane
I have not seen any bank statements for Mum, unless she leaves a statement lying around. I believe she has one account for her personal use with 18k in but she can’t access it - as I’m aware. She’s not capable tbh. Doesn’t use the phone doesn’t communicate with anyone except her children.
ive not seen a statement for £400,000 but that’s what my brother told my mum. I’ve seen spreadsheets with this amount spread around various bs a/cs.. He shows me the sheets and tells me once a year whats in them. I can’t access them and, even worse, he’s told me that if anything should happen to him he will give all the account access details to my sister in law who will leave them with a solicitor! I was furious over this and told him I didn’t want third party involvement but the idea is she’s family!. Therefore, if my brother is ill and mum needs something paid for urgently there is no; access and I’d have to use my money. It’s okay but it’s not right.
‘its not what mum wants’ is the mantra for past 6 years since mum became forgetful. He’s been happy for me to be the the gopher when I lived next door but when I wanted to take over the finances he turned mum against me.
it’s heart breaking to see mum sitting in furniture that’s 30 years old and a tv ten years old. Filthy carpets, everything is old in her bungalow - except a new dishwasher. I’ve broached thus with my brother and says it’s not up to my standard but Mum wouldn’t want change. I’ve tried everything but hit a brick wall.
ive mentioned things to mum but she ignores me, can’t hear or fobs me off. When she complains about not having a decent washing machine, having no money I end up saying i can’t help her as I can’t access her money.
My mum and brother go on about money as if it’s in short supply - she even told me I’m better off than my brother as I don’t have a partner to look after! They both were shocked over the cost of the wheelchair - £189. I’m amazed by it all.
I just feel ‘not part of it all’ tbh.…there’s such apathy - both from my mum and brother. He comes every 6 weeks stays for two hours doing the post, rubbish ect. Mum watches tv all day or sleeps. There‘s never any washing done or hanging up and the bathroom is filthy. My brother says that this acceptable.
no one is allowed in to see mum..there’s call blocking on the phone.
I have not seen any bank statements for Mum, unless she leaves a statement lying around. I believe she has one account for her personal use with 18k in but she can’t access it - as I’m aware. She’s not capable tbh. Doesn’t use the phone doesn’t communicate with anyone except her children.
ive not seen a statement for £400,000 but that’s what my brother told my mum. I’ve seen spreadsheets with this amount spread around various bs a/cs.. He shows me the sheets and tells me once a year whats in them. I can’t access them and, even worse, he’s told me that if anything should happen to him he will give all the account access details to my sister in law who will leave them with a solicitor! I was furious over this and told him I didn’t want third party involvement but the idea is she’s family!. Therefore, if my brother is ill and mum needs something paid for urgently there is no; access and I’d have to use my money. It’s okay but it’s not right.
‘its not what mum wants’ is the mantra for past 6 years since mum became forgetful. He’s been happy for me to be the the gopher when I lived next door but when I wanted to take over the finances he turned mum against me.
it’s heart breaking to see mum sitting in furniture that’s 30 years old and a tv ten years old. Filthy carpets, everything is old in her bungalow - except a new dishwasher. I’ve broached thus with my brother and says it’s not up to my standard but Mum wouldn’t want change. I’ve tried everything but hit a brick wall.
ive mentioned things to mum but she ignores me, can’t hear or fobs me off. When she complains about not having a decent washing machine, having no money I end up saying i can’t help her as I can’t access her money.
My mum and brother go on about money as if it’s in short supply - she even told me I’m better off than my brother as I don’t have a partner to look after! They both were shocked over the cost of the wheelchair - £189. I’m amazed by it all.
I just feel ‘not part of it all’ tbh.…there’s such apathy - both from my mum and brother. He comes every 6 weeks stays for two hours doing the post, rubbish ect. Mum watches tv all day or sleeps. There‘s never any washing done or hanging up and the bathroom is filthy. My brother says that this acceptable.
no one is allowed in to see mum..there’s call blocking on the phone.
I would take any statement your mother makes about her finances with a grain of salt. Your brother may never have said anything about £400,000. My mother came up with quite a few statements that I knew for a fact were confabulations, so I did not automatically believe whatever she said. I would, of course, go along with whatever story it was.
If anything happens to your brother then you will be the only person who holds POA and no-one else will be legally able to access your mums accounts - as any solicitor worth their salt will know. Its another empty threat to try and control you.
I would take some photographs of your mother's home. What happens about food shopping, cooking, washing up, out of date food?
Personally, I wouldn't be too concerned about the age of the furniture unless it is unusable or excessively shabby. That generation tends to be extremely frugal. I would use you mother's attitude to how often she replaced furniture in the past as a guide to what is reasonable now.
Personally, I wouldn't be too concerned about the age of the furniture unless it is unusable or excessively shabby. That generation tends to be extremely frugal. I would use you mother's attitude to how often she replaced furniture in the past as a guide to what is reasonable now.
Why on earth has your brother got spreadsheets, he is not spending anything so it is all very simple, all he needs is a monthly statement. Even if she has lots of different accounts he should only be using a current account for everyday needs and maybe topping it up every now and then and as he isn't spending anything then he probably doesn't even need to do that. The whole thing sounds ridiculous.
I managed my dads money very simply, he hardly spent anything in the last year (he was very ill) his bills were small and everything was paid by direct debit, I had to do nothing other than watch his money accumulate which was very sad. As his illness worsened his outings became fewer, he didn't want or need new clothes, he ate less so he spent less although I made sure that he had lots of treats such as smoked salmon for breakfast and the best chocolate ganache that I could buy. If he needed something, he got it which is what should be happening with your mum. She is 96 years old for heavens sake.
Is your brother just watching the money accumulate and rubbing his hands together. It is disgraceful, it is her money and he is acting very badly. She is living in a filthy house with filthy carpets, she has dementia and is not capable of making rational decisions. To be blunt, I think your brother is a bully and he is not fulfilling his role as POA either that or he has some kind of personality disorder or syndrome that convinces him that he is behaving properly.
I managed my dads money very simply, he hardly spent anything in the last year (he was very ill) his bills were small and everything was paid by direct debit, I had to do nothing other than watch his money accumulate which was very sad. As his illness worsened his outings became fewer, he didn't want or need new clothes, he ate less so he spent less although I made sure that he had lots of treats such as smoked salmon for breakfast and the best chocolate ganache that I could buy. If he needed something, he got it which is what should be happening with your mum. She is 96 years old for heavens sake.
Is your brother just watching the money accumulate and rubbing his hands together. It is disgraceful, it is her money and he is acting very badly. She is living in a filthy house with filthy carpets, she has dementia and is not capable of making rational decisions. To be blunt, I think your brother is a bully and he is not fulfilling his role as POA either that or he has some kind of personality disorder or syndrome that convinces him that he is behaving properly.
Your brother has no right to give his partner access to your mother's accounts and if she tried to access them you would be able to stop her. You are the only other person who has the right to access the account as you are one of the two attorneys under the LPA.
I have to ask: do you really want to have a relationship with your brother after all this? You mention that you were / are a single parent. Can you get support from your children who I assume are adults now (I don't wish to pry)?
If you can afford it it might be worthwhile for you to go and get legal advice from a solicitor who specialises in Court of Protection work who can lay out your options and advise you definitively (we are all amateurs). I would actually be inclined to find a solicitor who didn't act for your mother so that there is no possibility of a conflict of interest.
I have to ask: do you really want to have a relationship with your brother after all this? You mention that you were / are a single parent. Can you get support from your children who I assume are adults now (I don't wish to pry)?
If you can afford it it might be worthwhile for you to go and get legal advice from a solicitor who specialises in Court of Protection work who can lay out your options and advise you definitively (we are all amateurs). I would actually be inclined to find a solicitor who didn't act for your mother so that there is no possibility of a conflict of interest.
I suspect I'm being a bit dim, but, if you have POA , why can't you register it with her bank (find a statement at her house to find who she banks with) and then access the account? Your brother seems to be implying that you would be doing something illegal by doing this, but that's a lie! POA is a legal position that you are entitled to use.
If POA is held jointly then you both have to agree with each decision - clearly not happening. If jointly and severally you can act independently. No-one is going to accuse you of trying to somehow do your Mum out of her money by wanting to buy a wheelchair, or get carers in, and, quite frankly, your brother is a fool if he thinks that is the case.
If POA is held jointly then you both have to agree with each decision - clearly not happening. If jointly and severally you can act independently. No-one is going to accuse you of trying to somehow do your Mum out of her money by wanting to buy a wheelchair, or get carers in, and, quite frankly, your brother is a fool if he thinks that is the case.
What lovely bunch of people you are! thank you for your ideas which I’m going to put into action.
im going to see a solicitor as Lollyc and others have said which I will organise after Hospital tomorrow. I need to get a copy of my poa from mum’s Solicitor so I can add my name to mum’s accounts. The only thing is i need her permission? i think the bank needs to speak to mum as Donor of poa? I’m not sure. I’ll get advice from the `solicitor.
phew a lot of work.
I do believe the 400 grand as I was with Mum when Dad’s will was read and that was roughly the amount q2 years ago.
like Duggit’s girl I want spoil Mum a bit more take her out to lunch so she can stuff herself. I do buy nice stuff for her which she loves. She has all this money and not being used to buy her a good bed, nice linen and towels….I could go on.
thank you for your help and advice.
im going to see a solicitor as Lollyc and others have said which I will organise after Hospital tomorrow. I need to get a copy of my poa from mum’s Solicitor so I can add my name to mum’s accounts. The only thing is i need her permission? i think the bank needs to speak to mum as Donor of poa? I’m not sure. I’ll get advice from the `solicitor.
phew a lot of work.
I do believe the 400 grand as I was with Mum when Dad’s will was read and that was roughly the amount q2 years ago.
like Duggit’s girl I want spoil Mum a bit more take her out to lunch so she can stuff herself. I do buy nice stuff for her which she loves. She has all this money and not being used to buy her a good bed, nice linen and towels….I could go on.
thank you for your help and advice.
You are doing the right thing. Why shouldn’t you see that she has a good quality final phase of her life. Your brother needs a damned good wake up call to see how immoral his behaviour is. I would hate to think either of my children would ever do this to me. You are amazing and against such resistance, too. Well done, your conscience is clear.
Don’t speak to your mother about the PoA. Go and see the solicitor first and get advice about how to take matters forward.
First things first. You have the hospital appointment tomorrow. Put the wheelchair in the boot and don’t mention it to your mother. Let her try to walk a few steps. If she can’t manage, which is likely, she will probably agree to sit in the wheelchair. If you are really struggling with her then find a porter to help you.
Let us know how you get on.
First things first. You have the hospital appointment tomorrow. Put the wheelchair in the boot and don’t mention it to your mother. Let her try to walk a few steps. If she can’t manage, which is likely, she will probably agree to sit in the wheelchair. If you are really struggling with her then find a porter to help you.
Let us know how you get on.
If the LPA has been registered then you don’t have to ask your Mum about accessing her accounts and the bank doesn’t have to contact her. You will need proof of your identity so check what paperwork will be needed with whatever financial institution you need to deal with when you make the appointment to see them. You also need a Certified copy of the LPA which the solicitor holding the original should provide for a fee, probably something like £25.
Of course if your brother has the original then you’re stumped unless you can get a copy from the OPG. Does anybody else know if that’s possible?
Of course if your brother has the original then you’re stumped unless you can get a copy from the OPG. Does anybody else know if that’s possible?
Hi Alora
The key to all of this is being sure to act in Mum’s best interest which seems to be exactly what you are trying to do. I would, however, question your brother’s motives if he has already said he will not spend money on care. Unfortunately with dementia and your mother’s age, things are sadly only going to get worse.
I have had similar with my brother although I am the sole holder of the LPAs, I manage her finances and my Mother lives with me. Our row was about me spending money on respite care whilst I had the audacity to go on holiday. He tried to take my Mother to a solicitor to get the LP A overturned. I found the Office of Public Guardian really helpful. They said it would have to be my Mother who appoints a solicitor to get this actioned and the Solicitor would have to be reassured that my Mother could demonstrate competence and capacity to give such an instruction. A solicitor would or should require a formal Assessment by an expert - these are usually qualified independent consultants. My point about this illustration is that your brother cannot just get the LPA taken away from you. He must follow a fairly complex process lead by your Mother without his prompting Or coercion. His only other route would be to take you to court as an unsuitable to act as a power of attorney. This is an even more complex process. I would therefore suggest that you speak to the OPG (again) about your brother and get her file flagged so that they may be aware of the possibility of a vexacious attempt to remove you as LPA.
You need to stand your ground and not fear his threats. As joint holder of the LPAs you have a joint legal responsibility to act in her best interests. I therefore do not think it unreasonable for you to ask to see her bank statements. Indeed, I would go so far as to suggest that this is about acting responsibly. Furthermore, he needs to understand that a plan of support to meet present and future needs is probably overdue for a 96 year old lady with dementia.
I also think that a review with her Dr would be in order which if I were you, I would call him/her and raise your concerns and have the Dr initiate a health review with your Mother with you in attendance. (It would be helpful to file the Health LPA with the surgery if not already done so.)
I would also get the Dr on side to help initiate a care review with Social Services. To get this done can take a long time and a lot of badgering as their priority is safe guarding, but in my experience they will respond eventually - especially if you emphasise that you believe her to be at risk.
I recognise it will be an uphill battle with Mum, but if she can see the benefit of help, she may well become less resistant. I have two private carers that I started using purely for her entertainment - e.g taking her out for coffee and cake. To her, they are friends rather than carers and she now really looks forward to their visits.
I hope you are able to resolve this. You clearly love your Mum and want what is best for her. I am so sorry that you are having to fight to get the help and support she so clearly needs.
The key to all of this is being sure to act in Mum’s best interest which seems to be exactly what you are trying to do. I would, however, question your brother’s motives if he has already said he will not spend money on care. Unfortunately with dementia and your mother’s age, things are sadly only going to get worse.
I have had similar with my brother although I am the sole holder of the LPAs, I manage her finances and my Mother lives with me. Our row was about me spending money on respite care whilst I had the audacity to go on holiday. He tried to take my Mother to a solicitor to get the LP A overturned. I found the Office of Public Guardian really helpful. They said it would have to be my Mother who appoints a solicitor to get this actioned and the Solicitor would have to be reassured that my Mother could demonstrate competence and capacity to give such an instruction. A solicitor would or should require a formal Assessment by an expert - these are usually qualified independent consultants. My point about this illustration is that your brother cannot just get the LPA taken away from you. He must follow a fairly complex process lead by your Mother without his prompting Or coercion. His only other route would be to take you to court as an unsuitable to act as a power of attorney. This is an even more complex process. I would therefore suggest that you speak to the OPG (again) about your brother and get her file flagged so that they may be aware of the possibility of a vexacious attempt to remove you as LPA.
You need to stand your ground and not fear his threats. As joint holder of the LPAs you have a joint legal responsibility to act in her best interests. I therefore do not think it unreasonable for you to ask to see her bank statements. Indeed, I would go so far as to suggest that this is about acting responsibly. Furthermore, he needs to understand that a plan of support to meet present and future needs is probably overdue for a 96 year old lady with dementia.
I also think that a review with her Dr would be in order which if I were you, I would call him/her and raise your concerns and have the Dr initiate a health review with your Mother with you in attendance. (It would be helpful to file the Health LPA with the surgery if not already done so.)
I would also get the Dr on side to help initiate a care review with Social Services. To get this done can take a long time and a lot of badgering as their priority is safe guarding, but in my experience they will respond eventually - especially if you emphasise that you believe her to be at risk.
I recognise it will be an uphill battle with Mum, but if she can see the benefit of help, she may well become less resistant. I have two private carers that I started using purely for her entertainment - e.g taking her out for coffee and cake. To her, they are friends rather than carers and she now really looks forward to their visits.
I hope you are able to resolve this. You clearly love your Mum and want what is best for her. I am so sorry that you are having to fight to get the help and support she so clearly needs.
The form doesn't have to be completed by a solicitor, your mother could complete it herself if she was capable of it. But there isn't a formal test for capacity and you are as entitled as anyone else (apart from a judge in court) to determine whether she has capacity. It might help in practical terms though if an independent person evaluated things and wrote a report. Capacity is determined separately for every decision, and by the people involved in implementing it for her. For her to be legally able to revoke her existing POA she must understand what she is doing after it has been explained to her, remember what she has been told for long enough to consider the pros and cons, and she must be able to weigh up the pros and cons of revoking the existing POA, i.e. of giving you the sack as her attorney. And communicate her decision. It sounds to me unlikely that she can do all those four things, especially the weighing up of the pros and cons. She doesn't have to be tested by a man in a white coat.
I still think mediation would be worth a try but someone, maybe a mediator, has to tell your brother that you have just as much right to access and manage her finances as he does and it is misconduct on his part to exclude you from any of her financial affairs. I agree with the others that it is suspicious that he wants to. Most probably he is not misappropriating her funds but if he isn't why not show you the bank statements? In the worst case scenario he won't show you the bank statements because the money is no longer there. Most probably his motive is plain old greed - a desire to spend as little as possible now so that a future inheritance will be as large as possible. However that is not what an attorney is supposed to do. An attorney should act in the best interests of the donor. I think there is a case here for investigation by the office of the public guardian and if you want to, you could calmly tell him that if he won't share information openly with you you will approach the OPG and ask them to investigate his conduct. I think the OPG would be suspicious as we are and they would investigate.
Yes of course tell the solicitor everything especially abour your mother's dementia. The solicitor might know which bank holds the £400K if indeed there is £400k in the account.
Although yes if you are joint and several attorneys you can each act independently it would be chaos if you did both try to manage things at the same time so you do have to find a way to work together. I do hope some sort of mediation might work.
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