Money Advice

LYN T

Registered User
Aug 30, 2012
6,958
0
Brixham Devon
Hi. Yes, I'm aware I will need to show where any money has been spent, but none has been other than care home fees from the savings account and fees to do with selling the house. I haven't yet submitted the forms to ask for any money and £1000 is such a small amount in the scheme of things and money she would want to give for her grand-daughter to have the dental treatment she needs. I very much get the feeling that some of the people on here disapprove of me asking about this subject because my mother has a lot of money but I wouldn't do anything that's not legal.

I stand corrected I thought you had already submitted the forms.

I for one don't disapprove of you asking about this subject. I am replying solely on your requests for advice. As none of us have legal experience (even if we did we are not allowed to submit posts indicating that we are) I would take advice from the OPG as previously stated. I would also request that if they do agree to you taking the action that you want to, to put it in writing. That way you are covered when the annual audit is taken.
 

Katrine

Registered User
Jan 20, 2011
2,837
0
England
Do you really think borrowing such a small amount would be a big problem, especially when I can prove she's given my brother and I much larger sums in the past? Thank you.

First of all, £1K is not a small sum of money. Your daughter's braces are going to cost you £2K and that's a lot of money to you.

I say this with the greatest respect - you have to let go of whatever gifting/loaning habits may have obtained in your family in the past. Your mum has lost capacity to make loans or large gifts. When and if you become her deputy you cannot use past events as a reason for making financial decisions on her behalf. Put "it's what she would have wanted" entirely out of your head.

Your duty will be to meet her needs and to invest surplus funds on her behalf so that you gain a bit of interest for her. The OPG will probably encourage you to move dead money out of current accounts into a savings account so that it is working for her. Thus, even if they do allow you to borrow £1K, you would have to promise in writing to add a sum of notional interest to the total you repay.

I don't think people on TP are disapproving of you asking these questions. Shedrech's post is very helpful in explaining the black and white approach versus the grey and blurry approach as an attorney. The latter does not necessarily reflect criminal intent, it's more a very human 'Yes, but...." and "We do things differently in our family."

Shredrech is also correct in observing that it would appear that some Attorneys, and even some Deputies, succeed in stealing from vulnerable people. They have justifications in their own mind for doing this. You sound like a decent and caring person. Please stop thinking of your mum's funds as some sort of family bank, or an advance on your inheritance. You want to be proud of everything you do for your mum don't you?

Sorry if that sounds critical, or unhelpful. It's absolutely meant in a spirit of friendship. :)

Edited: I misunderstood the OP when he said he had forms to apply to the Court of Protection. I thought he meant he was applying for deputyship. I now understand that he already has POA and is seeking approval for a specific financial action that the OPG considers requires Court authorisation.
 
Last edited:

Tubbsy

Registered User
Sep 5, 2010
110
0
Surrey

Tubbsy

Registered User
Sep 5, 2010
110
0
Surrey
First of all, £1K is not a small sum of money. Your daughter's braces are going to cost you £2K and that's a lot of money to you.

I say this with the greatest respect - you have to let go of whatever gifting/loaning habits may have obtained in your family in the past. Your mum has lost capacity to make loans or large gifts. When and if you become her deputy you cannot use past events as a reason for making financial decisions on her behalf. Put "it's what she would have wanted" entirely out of your head.

Your duty will be to meet her needs and to invest surplus funds on her behalf so that you gain a bit of interest for her. The OPG will probably encourage you to move dead money out of current accounts into a savings account so that it is working for her. Thus, even if they do allow you to borrow £1K, you would have to promise in writing to add a sum of notional interest to the total you repay.

I don't think people on TP are disapproving of you asking these questions. Shedrech's post is very helpful in explaining the black and white approach versus the grey and blurry approach as an attorney. The latter does not necessarily reflect criminal intent, it's more a very human 'Yes, but...." and "We do things differently in our family."

Shredrech is also correct in observing that it would appear that some Attorneys, and even some Deputies, succeed in stealing from vulnerable people. They have justifications in their own mind for doing this. You sound like a decent and caring person. Please stop thinking of your mum's funds as some sort of family bank, or an advance on your inheritance. You want to be proud of everything you do for your mum don't you?

Sorry if that sounds critical, or unhelpful. It's absolutely meant in a spirit of friendship. :)

Hi Katrine, thank you for replying. I hear what you're saying but I can't help but feel that I shouldn't have to put past events and gifts/loans from my mum out of my head when that's what happened and she would still want to happen, without a doubt. The amount of money needs to be looked at in relation to her total assets which I can assure is a huge amount. I am aware that some people steal tens of thousands from relatives but I would never do that. at the same time i feel that I should be able to have money my mum would want me to have when I need it and in this case especially as it's for her granddaughters' well being.
 

Tubbsy

Registered User
Sep 5, 2010
110
0
Surrey
I stand corrected I thought you had already submitted the forms.

I for one don't disapprove of you asking about this subject. I am replying solely on your requests for advice. As none of us have legal experience (even if we did we are not allowed to submit posts indicating that we are) I would take advice from the OPG as previously stated. I would also request that if they do agree to you taking the action that you want to, to put it in writing. That way you are covered when the annual audit is taken.

Hi Lyn T...thank you. I'm sorry, I wasn't aiming that comment at you, it just came out on the reply! I just feel that some people are a bit judgemental when they don't have the whole picture, and how could they have? I realise that. thanks for your advice
 

Tubbsy

Registered User
Sep 5, 2010
110
0
Surrey
I'm interested in this issue Tubbsy
as it's caused a major rift in my family
I read the instructions to Attorneys that everything must be done in the best interests of the donor and that the Attorney and any of the Attorney's family members are not to benefit from being an Attorney as meaning that loans etc are not acceptable, neither are large gifts
to be honest, I don't think my dad's money should be used for anyone but him
he too has a pretty substantial amount - his pension covers his care home fees at present (though with a 10% increase per year that will not always be the case) so his savings will pretty much sit there until he dies - I don't feel as Attorney I should have any access to his money before he dies whatever he may or may not have said and done in the past
I have a co Attorney who says 'dad would have wanted to ...' and 'that's what family does' - but I disagree - so where does that leave us? - it's no longer possible to know what dad's wishes might be, so to me nothing should be done as that's the conservative approach - we're both adults and responsible each for our own finances
I checked with the OPG that if someone lives in dad's house now he is no longer there (trying to sell it currently) they should pay the bills, not dad - co Attorney said dad would want a family member living there and, as the person would be 'caretaking' in case of vandalism, dad should pay (and the person wasn't being asked to contribute while they lived at home, so why should they if they were staying in dad's house)
and also checked when it was suggested that the person and partner rent the house until dad dies but at a low rent (the same as being paid for a flat by the partner) which would give dad 'a bit of an income' and more interest than from savings (though they wanted to put in a new kitchen and have a builder in to sort out some damp issues) - the OPG said any rent would have to be a fair market rent and as family were involved there was a conflict of interest and permission would have to be gained for the COP
so I'm a bit surprised that the OPG have said on the phone that taking the amounts you are asking about would be acceptable (eg 2% of £200,000 would be £4000 in total - which to me is a large amount if not a large percentage)
I don't think anyone is 'getting at' you personally, it's just that the roles of Attorney and Deputy seem to have such tight controls on them, alongside the issue of deprivation of assets, that many think there is very little leeway with how a donor's finances can be dealt with - so much so that some Attorneys/carers go the other way and pay far too much from their own pockets or are afraid to take reasonable expenses
I also read some of the cases on the OPG website and Attorneys have been removed for infringements involving what might seem to be quite small sums - yet also read on TP of what are considered/appear as abuses of the POAs involving large sums, which are not taken up by police or the COP
so, as I said at first, I'll be interested in the outcome of your 2 enquiries to gauge what is/is not acceptable to the OPG - bearing in mind each case is individual
so I hope you'll let us know

Hi Shedrick, thanks for your reply. I guess we all feel,differently about this subject.....my brother and I feel the same so I guess that's one good thing. I also think that the percentage of my mums's assets is what's important, not the amount and also the fact that she has so much money, she would have to live for another 20 years for it all be needed for her care home fees/inheritance tax. Along with the way things have been in the last, I don't feel guilty at all for asking for some money or feel I am depriving her in any way. I will post when I know the outcome of any application I make but imdaresay that will be months hence!
 

Tubbsy

Registered User
Sep 5, 2010
110
0
Surrey
I don't think it's disapproval about you having the money, I think the advice is to protect you from possible problems in the future with the Opg/social services/deprevation of assets people.

That said, you have suggested that your mum is "wealthy" so that £1000 is small change to her. I can only speak from personal experience, and I have lasting power of attorney, not guardianship so the rules may be different but when I spoke to opg about a "loan" for my sister, it was suggested to me, if I could prove that this was what mum would have done in the past, and that giving a "loan" to my sister wouldn't place mum in financial difficulties, then they didn't see a reason why I shouldn't.

At the time mum had enough money for over 5 years care home fees, taking into account the percentage rises. That was 4 years ago, and it seems like mum has at least another 4 years of living to do as she appears physically very well. At the time of the loan, it was agreed in writing that if mum run out of money, my sister would repay the loan

Hi, thanks for your reply. I have LPA too and when I spoke to the opg about a gift of a much larger sum, explaining my mums' assets, they thought it would be fine but suggested I should go via the court of protection so I would have thought they would consider this amount 'small change'. I will call them again, they are very helpful. Can I ask how you went about organising the loan to your sister....did it involve a solicitor? Thanks.
 

2jays

Registered User
Jun 4, 2010
11,598
0
West Midlands
Hi, thanks for your reply. I have LPA too and when I spoke to the opg about a gift of a much larger sum, explaining my mums' assets, they thought it would be fine but suggested I should go via the court of protection so I would have thought they would consider this amount 'small change'. I will call them again, they are very helpful. Can I ask how you went about organising the loan to your sister....did it involve a solicitor? Thanks.

No solicitor involved. Just between us.... any money that is "left" is inherited by both. The written confirmation of loan was back up for me, incase mum needed the money later on, and also to confirm the amount of loan was recognised when mum passed away.

There is history as to why I made sure it was in writing....
 

2jays

Registered User
Jun 4, 2010
11,598
0
West Midlands
Just a thought...

I wonder if the opg suggested to go to cop because it's a "loan" to you, the POA, and not another family member...

Personally... At the time, I did not see a problem with the loan to my sister, but made sure she knew it was a one off.... Due to history.... The reason why mum made me, the younger daughter, POA...
 

Tubbsy

Registered User
Sep 5, 2010
110
0
Surrey
So I have spoken to the opg....they said that if the money was for a birthday or similar it would be fine but they felt that as I've said it's for something else, should 'seek guidance' from the cop. What I find strange about this is how they would know what I've spent it on...if I said its a birthday present for me (and it has been my birthday very recently) and they could confirm this from my PoA application, how would they know any different?!
 

LYN T

Registered User
Aug 30, 2012
6,958
0
Brixham Devon
I always think it is best to be honest about such things. It would play on my mind if I hadn't been. If the COP agree with your request you will have a clear conscious.
 

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