Mental Capacity Act As Of 1.10.2007

[Skye]

No, I think there is nobody out there who cares as much as we do.

Dear Katie,

Unfortunately, that's so true. There are several threads running at the moment complaining of bureaucracy, and the way we and our loved ones are treated.

The truth is, we care because we love. For them, it's a job, and their main aim is to spend as little as possible, in order to satisfy government targets.

For us, it can never be enough; for them, it always costs too much!

 

[117katie]

Hazel, I am likely to agree with you ... but how do we get others who MAY NOT YET BE WHERE WE ALL ARE to consider that one day soon, they or their loved ones may be in a similar position.

And why do we have to put up with a 30-day complaints procedure? If they are so sure that they are providing genuinely decent care, then they should all be able to reply within, say, 10 days. Or are they hoping that we may all have forgotten what we are trying to achieve?

Probably.

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[Morny]

The frustrating bit I find is I've had a carer's assessment for my self last 2 years. Yes they agree I need a break, so last year fine. This year had to go to doc for Bob (receptionists cock up) re a blue badge application. it comes out that CPN x 2 written me off books cos too capable. Naive more like - think as he's my husband I have little choice. Friends tell me different but right now it feels like I'm the big bad wolf wanting to put my husband in a safe place to have peace of mind while having a holiday. What do I have to do wack him one and bruise him so he's at risk. No not really going to altho feel like it sometimes
M x

 

[117katie]

Hi Morny!
That is exactly what I have said for the last year or more - they wrote my aunt off as "not needing any assistance - has a niece who will do all our work for us". The only person she saw for the first 8 months was a rubbish social worker, who got so many facts wrong about her. Her GP was phoning me up and asking whether my aunt had ever been seen by the Psychiatrist - why don't you find out for yourself, I said, because they won't tell me. Took me another 5 months to make them realise that I was not joking, and I was not going to go away. Social worker took 2 months even to arrange meals on wheels for my 82 year old who was losing weight because she lived alone and was not eating! Then the SW cancelled the MOW "because your aunt wants to cook for herself"!!!!

They thought that she would somehow miraculously re-discover the ability to shop and cook for herself. Week later they re-instated MOW - and few weeks later, she began to regain some of the weight she had lost. Not a lot, but enough.

Took me a full 10 months to get them to put her on the waiting list to go to Day Centre - she's always been a very chatty, sociable person. "She doesn't want to go" I was told again and again. But once she got on the bus and got nattering there, she loved each and every visit!

The sheltered housing we moved her to - on the recommendation of the Social Worker - was rubbish too; she walked straight out of the door on day 2 and couldn't find her way back. Don't they know what Dementia is all about? The so-called care workers are rubbish, and she can't even understand them. They put her medication into little plastic pot for her to take later - IF SHE REMEMBERED - but she didn't of course, she stored them up! Keeping them for later, just in case I need them.

And now two years down the line, the Social Worker has the nerve to tell me she is the "decision maker" as far as my aunt is concerned; she is "Care Coordinator" - HUH! SAID I, what a pity it has been me who has had to do all the Care Coordinating for the last two years!

Makes you want to grab the Social Service staff by the throat and just squeeze to make them have to listen to you, because otherwise you won't let go!!!! And then they'll need Care Coordinators and Care Workers themselves! Then they might see the person at the end - rather than just another number to deal with.

I feel better already for having got that off my chest at last!!!
Katie

 

[Laylabud]

Katie


All i can say, "way to go girl" you have got the bit between your teeth and rightly so. What gives these Social workers the right when there are living relatives that care what happens to their family. It worries me sick that there a lot of people out there that are finding themselves in a similar situation and really do not know where to go or what to do.
Until i found TP there was a distinct lack of guidance from anywhere being pushed from pillar to post, you feel at times like you are fighting the world. You can understand why people feel very low at times, i have been there enough recently with more downs than ups.

Keep up the pressure katie and hopefully this is one battle you will win.

Best Wishes

Laylabud

 

[117katie]

Thanks - shall do my very best, but I just don't know whether I will have the energies to take on the bustards!!!

 

[117katie]

Update On Latest Mca Developments

Hi folks.

Just thought I'd update you all on my latest info re. Mental Capacity Act, which I fear is going to cause each of us massive problems, not to mention those people who don't have the comfort blanket of ... you lot! And thanks to all of you, because we all may read something that interests us along the line, even though we don't always contribute to the debate at the time for whatever reason.

Anyway, just thought you might like to know that The Deputy Manager in Charge of All Those Decisions that have come my way over the last 21 days regarding the Mental Capacity Act phoned me today, (because I have made a FORMAL COMPLAINT to the NHS Chief Executive of the local bods dealing with the area involved) and he told me that they themselves don't quite understand it all yet, and they themselves have discovered flaws in the guidance that has been passed down to them in their TRAINING SESSIONS in the local authority where they/we live. And that they are LEARNING how to apply the MCA - - - and yes, we may get it all wrong as we learn, said The Deputy Manager Man!!!

But when I asked him: do you know what is involved in the APPLICATION TO THE COURT OF PROTECTION that his SW has told me is the ONLY way I can challenge the decisions made, he said: OH, YES, WE DO REALISE WHAT IS INVOLVED. Which means that he/they know that I now have to fill in about 8 forms, submit them all, pay £400 for the decision I wish the Court to make, and then to wait ...... wait for it, folks .... UP TO 20 WEEKS to wait for the final decision to be made. Yes, I did write 20 WEEKS ... by which time ..... who knows what could have happened by then.

I guess they are hoping that I may have "shuffled off this mortal coil" or even that I may just chuck it all in and just admit that they have the right to make all these decisions about my Aunt.

I cannot begin to express how I feel about this Mental Capacity Act. I cannot being to express how desperately sad I feel that we may all be lumbered with this piece of rubbish legislation, which IF THE SO-CALLED PROFESSIONALS DON'T UNDERSTAND IT .... THEN HOW ARE WE SUPPOSED TO.

take care of you and yours - because Social Services and the Mental Trust "Health Care of Older People Team" will not take care of them.

Gone now ... to .... despair of the idiocy of those in charge.

Katie

 

[jenniferpa]

I know it doen't seem like progress but it is you know, because they have finally admitted that they "might" have got it wrong. I realise you still have to go through all this hassle but at least you've seen a small chink in their armour. Please keep us posted - you may be the first to do this but I doubt you'll be the last.

 

[117katie]

May Well Be The First...

... but I would dearly love to be the last who has had to contend with this rubbish. But of course, I realise that I will not be the last ... it is coming.

Problem I have is that I have no idea where this all came from. Before October I had not heard of the Mental Capacity Act ... and why should I have ... but .. A VOID THERE SOMEWHERE IN TERMS OF PUBLIC CONSULTATION, I WOULD SUGGEST.

I have done a fair bit of research since the Mental Capacity Act came my way, when it was first quoted to me by A SOCIAL WORKER and with hindsight, I only wish that THE ALARM BELLS had rung then. But of course I could not know then that her strings were being pulled by ... her managerS, her superiors before whom of course she bows down ..... but ... and sorry, folks, I did not then realise that I should have asked HUGE QUESTIONS. But I do now, so I will continue to ask HUGE QUESTIONS.

Guess what my weekend will be?

Filling in the 8 or 10 or 100-page forms to appeal to the Court of Protection. Ok, I am lucky, I am able to fill in each and every one of those forms .... I HOPE (check in on about Tuesday to see if I managed it!!!!), but my heart goes out to anybody out there who may be on the receiving end of the sh.t that has come our way.

Katie

 

[Laylabud]

Katie, i keep being told by SS that they are there to help and support the patient and also the family.
I beg to differ on both counts, they have not been there for me they provide you with little or no information, it is only joining a forum like this or speaking to other people in a similar situation that you find out things that they should be helping you with in the first place.
Good luck with the form filling, i myself will be doing some writing over the weekend and maybe if i am lucky might be able to get some fresh air.

Best wishes and good Luck


Laylabud

 

[Morny]

Hi everyone
No I've not been in hiding, just fighting social services - surprise surprise.
Well since I last posted I had a phone call form Bob's SW ( who had had a detailed explaination from me about his condition) saying could he manage an electronic talking pill dispenser. They are still adamant at this point he should have respite care in his own home for the 2 weeks I'm on holiday. She says is that ok I firmly said no. By this time I'm not feeling too good with all the worry of what is going to happen to him in the night ( now on pills for anxiety) So off I go on a mission and write a 2 page A4 letter, Make an appointment with the solicitor and Bob's specialist doctor, and tell them that's my intention.

The solicitor thinks maybe I'm too late to register LPA because there is no EPA in place. I saw no point to that as we don't own the house and he has no money (used to be in banking and knew it didn't extend to health matters)

See the doctor he says not too late phew!!. Just won't be able to register it for a while, can't have my cake and eat it - fair enough. If he is able to, for the moment, to understand the implications of what he is doing ( won't know later) then he's not ready to have it registered. Ok I don't mind that bit. But I was in such a state as SW & Cpn said if ultimately I no longer wanted to care for him same assessment as now and if he wanted to stay at home, and I didin't agree or like it I had an option to move out Ouch!!

Guess what the letter was written to SS manager. Sw on phone saying in light of contents of letter they'd found him a bed, but if he didn't want to go he didn't have to - last word or what. Didn't tell me where I had to ask. There wasn't a care plan presented to me before this , when he was supposed to be at home.

Feeling a bit better about it now, but they sent me to hell and back

If anyone wants to read letter you are most welcome.

Guess now is the time to fight them because they are not too sure of themselves

Once again thank you all for your support

Love M x

 

[117katie]

Hi, Morny!

I do hope you get your holiday - you certainly need a break. And I hope that Bob gets the care he needs, which like you I think has to be residential respite away from the house, and not being left on his own day and night. Pleased to hear that your well-written and perfectly-directed letter to SS manager made them sit up and listen at last.

Have no more to report yet - fingers will be busy filling in forms this weekend. Just one more thought on the LPA situation. As I understand it, there are two kinds of LPA now, one which covers financial matters only, and one which covers welfare only. The "welfare matters" LPA would allow you - with Bob's consent - to be in the position of registering the LPA if and when it were decided by his Medics that he was "lacking the mental capacity" to understand the implications of any decision to be made, or to be able to retain the information being given to him, or to be able to make that decision all by himself. And as I see it, it has to be the decision-at-the-time that is in question. that is in question, and that will be a great problem with this Mental Capacity Act.

It is being used - as I see it - as a shield behind which the SWs and SS generally can hide. They can then just say - as long as they fill in the appropriate form for their file - "I made this decision in the best interests of X and having established that he/she lacked the mental capacity to make the decision him/herself".

Anyway, for the time being, just sit back and sit tight and sit firm. If anyone told me the choice was "to move out" I would either demand they put it in writing, or if they didn't, I would write another letter to them - and to their Manager - just saying "I want to confirm with you that on XX date you told me that I had the choice to move out". Keep a copy!! See whether they backtrack then, and give you the support you need.

Can't for the life of me understand why we are all having to put up with this rubbish from Social Services and junior medics! It takes my breath away.

Bye for now
Katie

 

[Morny]

Hi Katie
I agree with that. Can't really pin them down on moving out as it was posed as a hypothetical question. Yes what you're saying about health part of LPA is what dr said. he also said if it's in place but not registered we know without a shadow of doubt we will reach the time when it HAS to be registered. The awful problem for all carers is the slow pace the deterioration takes place. We have to watch patiently for a long time, longer than we really know we have.
The holiday is only a week away, still not as excited as I should be, but after Thurs 1 Nov Bob will be safe and loked after. It's my birthday and I'm ging out with girls I used to work with so it starts there!! Then Mon it's Nile cruise for a week and Red Sea resort for a week, perhaps I won't come back - no can't do that I'll have SS squatters in place when I get back
M x

 

[sue38]

Hi everyone

The solicitor thinks maybe I'm too late to register LPA because there is no EPA in place. I saw no point to that as we don't own the house and he has no money (used to be in banking and knew it didn't extend to health matters)

See the doctor he says not too late phew!!. Just won't be able to register it for a while, can't have my cake and eat it - fair enough. If he is able to, for the moment, to understand the implications of what he is doing ( won't know later) then he's not ready to have it registered.

Hi Morny,

I'm not sure that the above is right. As I understand it you do not have an EPA and are therefore looking at doing an LPA. An LPA HAS to be registered before it can be used (whether the Donor lacks mental capacity or not) whereas an EPA could be used without being registered and only had to be registered when the donor was becoming or had become mentally incapable.

I think the doctor may be getting the two confused. I totally agree that if someone signed an EPA and you immediately registered it on the basis that they were mentally incapable this would imply that they did not have the mental capacity to make the EPA in the first place.

An LPA whether it relates to Property and Affairs or to Personal Welfare can be registered immediately either by the Attorney or by the Donor as registration does not imply that the donor is no longer mentally capable.

For example a donor might be going into hospital for an operation, or going on an extended holiday and wants the attorney to take over their affairs during that time. In order to do so the Property and Affairs LPA must be registered.

I'm afraid what your solicitor said makes no sense at all.

 

[117katie]

That's absolutely right - an LPA cannot be used before and unless it has been registered. But it can be drawn up now - as long as the Donor is able to understand what is involved and as long as pressure is not applied to the Donor - and registered at a later date, as I understand it. When the instrument comes into operation

Copied the following bit from a legal website:

"Making an LPA

An LPA

* Can now be made.
* Must be set out in the legally required format
* As a safeguard, has a 'certificate' section that must be completed by an independent person to confirm that you, as the donor, understand the power and importance of the LPA and that you are not under any pressure to make it .
* As a second safeguard, can contain the names of anyone you as the donor want to be notified of any application to register the LPA. If there is no one to be notified, you must say so and have a second certificate.

....

Your Attorney(s) cannot act under an LPA unless it is registered with the Public Guardian.

The LPA can be registered with the Public Guardian at any time either before you as the donor lose the mental capacity to make decisions for yourself or when your attorney(s) have reason to believe that this has happened.

The Attorney(s) you have appointed to make personal welfare decisions can only use this power once the LPA has been registered and provided that you cannot make the required decision for yourself."

Sorry, folks, if I gave misleading info before - put it down to stress!

Katie

 

[roman]

My mum has been refused the flu jab as the district nurses are saying becaused of the new act we need to have Power of Attorney.As this is a relatively new act I questioned this as few people will have applied for Lasting Power of attorney which gives right to make decisions on a relatives welfare now.Her GP has said this is rubbish and that she can have it.I said she has always had it.I rang the district nurses to challenge their decision but 2 days later have no response.I have read the act and do not agree they are acting in her 'best interests'.It does seems that this act was meant to protect people with dementia but professionals are misinterpreting it.My mum is in an EMI home so I am also challenging this decision on behalf of those who have no relatives to speak for them.

 

[117katie]

Staggering stuff, Roman but that's exactly what is happening - A SHIELD BEHIND WHICH TO HIDE for all these so-called Care Workers. I'll try to find out next week what happens with the "consent to flu jab" that I have given - like you saying, it is in her "best interests" to have it. I hope that those in a position of influence at Alzheimers.org are reading all this stuff and working out what on earth we are all doing.

Katie

Just had a thought: when I was told that the decision about where my relative should live had been made "under the Mental Capacity Act", I was told that the only way I could challenge that decision - and make them listen - was by applying to the Court of Protection, which involves umpteem forms to be filled in, accompanied by a Consultant-completed-form to confirm that my relative does indeed lack the mental capacity to make this decision for herself, plus a cheque for £400 ..... and then I was told that it could take up to 20 weeks for a decision to be made. But slightly earlier if that decision was URGENT. Which would mean, according to the logic presented to me by the SW, the Deputy Manager of the Mental Health Unit involved, by the Complaints Officer, and by the PALS rep - .... that each and every one of us who wants our relative to have a flu jab, could have to spend £400 plus a wait of 20 weeks, plus all the bureaucratic form-filling ... by which time it is highly likely that our relatives will all have caught and spread the flu!

Sad world we live in.

 

[Morny]

Thank you all for good sense info. Will put it all on hold until after hol now, but I'll let you know what happens with LPA and registering etc. I used to be a mortgage adviser and same sorts of acts etc happened in finance, not always for customers protection, but purported to be!. Every one floundered around each putting their own interpretation on contents. Then the wrinkles started to get ironed out and directives were issued making it all much easier to apply. I think this is what we are victims of with MCA. While they sort it out we will be piggies in the middle.

Not had any anti regarding flu jab, invitation to attend surgery came, haven't taken it up yet as all special flu jab clinics have been fully booked, so have to wait until they agree to do it in normal clinic. But on this issue Bob would agree
M x

 

[117katie]

Forgot to say: HAVE A GREAT HOLIDAY!!
Katie
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