1. Expert Q&A: Protecting a person with dementia from financial abuse - Weds 26 June, 3:30-4:30 pm

    Financial abuse can have serious consequences for a person with dementia. Find out how to protect a person with dementia from financial abuse.

    Sam, our Knowledge Officer (Legal and Welfare Rights) is our expert on this topic. She will be here to answer your questions on Wednesday 26 June between 3:30 - 4:30 pm.

    You can either post questions >here< or email them to us at talkingpoint@alzheimers.org.uk and we'll answer as many as we can on the day.

  1. Terrypm

    Terrypm Registered User

    Nov 1, 2015
    16
    My brother has poa for my motherson acc, I found out inadvertently from manager of her home he was in arrears with the local authority with her fees ( mum is local authorities funded and makes a contribution to them). This made me suspicious and so I made him give me the log in for her account only to find he lied to my sister and I about what her income was, she is left with close to four hundred pounds every four weeks but he told us the council keep all except £24 A MONTH. Apart from there being no money left because he transferred every penny to his own acc, her acc is £415 overdrawn. I immediately told him to dismiss his poa as I am named as second attorney and he did this , I went to the bank and discovered he had never registered the poa with them ,so I froze the acc, I have letter now showing my name has been changed on poa but they can't send me original u til he returns to them,what can I do.
    1 about my brother's fraud.
    2 getting access to acc to pay mums care fees.
     
  2. Shedrech

    Shedrech Volunteer Moderator

    Dec 15, 2012
    7,426
    Yorkshire
    Hi Terrypm and welcome to TP :)
    There are quite a few members who know a good bit about the ins and outs of Power of Attorney - I'm sure one will be able to come up with some thoughts.
    I don't know enough to comment - don't want to inadvertently write the wrong thing.
    I do wonder, though, if you are able to set up a Direct Debit from your mum's bank to the Local Authority's (or even direct to the care home) - so that the payments are made automatically and aren't going through any third party.
     
  3. LYN T

    LYN T Registered User

    Aug 30, 2012
    6,967
    Brixham Devon
    Hi Terrypm-welcome to TP. As your Mum is LA funded her contribution for her CH fees will consist of All of her State Pension, all of any Occupational/private Pension (unless there is a spouse at home in which case she will pay half of the OP) She will be able to keep a personal allowance of approx £24.00 per WEEK. In addition she will be expected to pay a portion of any savings until they reach a certain level -I think that is in the region of £17,000.00. She will pay £1.00 for every £250.00 over this minimum level. Others will be along to confirm the amounts.

    Does this make the figures add up a bit better?

    Take care

    Lyn T
     
  4. nitram

    nitram Registered User

    Apr 6, 2011
    18,303
    Male
    North Manchester
    Has your brother formally revoked his POA with the OPG/COP?

    You say your mother's account is overdrawn by £415 and that she is in arrears with her contribution to the LA, you also say that at some stage your brother transferred the balance of your mother's account to his own account.

    As you are now the (sole?) attorney for your mother I would contact the LA and explain the situation. They may take steps to recover the funds transferred to pay your mother's debts. Even a letter from them saying that they believe he has access to some of his mother's funds and could he please use them to pay off the debt may make him take notice. He, of course, may have spent the funds.

    You should inform them of the situation as soon as possible so that cannot be accused of being implicit in any fraud that may have occurred..
     
  5. Terrypm

    Terrypm Registered User

    Nov 1, 2015
    16
    He has revoked and he transferred the funds from mum to himself on a weekly basis,I have told la that my mum is not paying again and they can take up the arrears with him, which they agreed to do.
     
  6. Terrypm

    Terrypm Registered User

    Nov 1, 2015
    16
    Thanks lyn. My mums state pension is taken into account on assessment but all other monies . Occ pen. Dead dad's pension and mobility allowance are under heading , not taken into account.no spouse at home.
     
  7. nitram

    nitram Registered User

    Apr 6, 2011
    18,303
    Male
    North Manchester
    The only place where funds can be obtained is from your brother, for the moment I'd wait and see what happens between him and the LA. Do you know if there is there likely to be excess funds when the LA debt has been paid and your mother's overdraft cleared?

    You need to get your brother to return the POA, if he claims to have lost it or point blank refuses to return it contact the OPG.
     
  8. Terrypm

    Terrypm Registered User

    Nov 1, 2015
    16
    Morning nitrate.
    Since i froze the acc mums pensions and mobility allowance would have gone in and so there will be enough to pay la invoice,
    I have letter from opg stating I am now attorney so I hope bank will accept this.
     
  9. Terrypm

    Terrypm Registered User

    Nov 1, 2015
    16
    Hi shedrech.
    Went to bank and tried to set up direct debit but couldn't be done while acc overdrawn, I froze the acc then but now I have letter from opg and funds should have gone in I will visit again and do that
     
  10. Terrypm

    Terrypm Registered User

    Nov 1, 2015
    16
    Brother abusing poa

    Guess what everyone,short of me going to police,which although sorely tempted can't bring myself to do. Not one agency seems to be interested in what my brother has done, I called local authority occupational pension depth to see if money could be paid into a new acc in my name, no he said,your mother's name has to be on the acc, open a joint one he said but i said my mum is in advanced stages of altzheimers and so I wouldn't feel comfortable doing that or asking my mum to sign anything, oh don't worry he said,it will be fine.unbelievable. no wonder my brother done this for so long.
     
  11. nitram

    nitram Registered User

    Apr 6, 2011
    18,303
    Male
    North Manchester
    You can use your LPA to open an account that your brother cannot access.
    The account will be named something like Terrypm (POA Mum), banks vary in how they name the account.

    The pension could be paid into this account as it effectively your mum's account with you operating it.
     
  12. Terrypm

    Terrypm Registered User

    Nov 1, 2015
    16
    brother abusing poa

    Hi Nitram,
    Since last post have discovered Solicitor had lpa and OPG told me to call her to return to them for amendment, I did this and now the solicitor has sent me a letter thanking me for asking her to act on my behalf to have the poa amended, including her costs of £230 per hour, As my brother has disclaimed and I received letter from opg informing me i had been enabled, i was mortified, there is no money and the opg told me unless the solicitor asked for the document to be returned to me they have to return it to her. they also said the document is legally mine and i can ask for it from her but now i think she won't give to me unless her fee is paid.
     
  13. arielsmelody

    arielsmelody Registered User

    Jul 16, 2015
    511
    It isn't clear from your post whether the solicitor has already done the work in amending the lpa, or whether she has written to you outlining her charges before doing it? If she hasn't done the work yet, and if there is no other money outstanding, there shouldn't be any problem in her returning the documents to you.
     
  14. Terrypm

    Terrypm Registered User

    Nov 1, 2015
    16
    brother abusing poa

    hi arielsmelody,
    Sorry, let me tell you what has happened so far, My brother sent the form LP005 to the office of public guardian disclaiming himself from lpa, as i was named to replace him on the lpa, the OPG then enabled me, amended their records and sent me a letter informing me, however the bank need to see the original lpa but my brother sent them his notice of lpa rather than the original, I rang his solicitor and asked if she had it, when she said she did, i told her the OPG wanted it back as although they had enabled me and sent me proof of this the bank wanted the original document, she was angry because as far as she was concerned the OPG should not have enabled me until they received the original, (i don't know if this is correct) but i told her they had and can she please return the lpa to OPG. I followed this conversation up with an email and asked if sending the lpa had incurred any fees, to send the bill to my brother.I have spoken to the OPG since and they explained they would have to return it to her unless she stated otherwise but as I was the legal owner I should just insist on her returning it to me, which I shall, but don't know what to do if she won't? Also I really can not see what work she has to do apart from posting it on to them, please tell me if i am being naive. The next thing i knew she wrote to me etc.
     
  15. arielsmelody

    arielsmelody Registered User

    Jul 16, 2015
    511
    #15 arielsmelody, Nov 17, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2015
    So the solicitor has the original LPA, and your brother has sent the OPG an LPA 005 form.
    https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...ta/file/440363/LPA005_disclaimer_web_0715.pdf

    When the solicitor wrote to you, did she say that her fee would be £230 for amending the form, and that you owed her that money now, or did she say that if you wanted her to do the work, it would be £230 per hour and give an estimate of how many hours it would take? If it is just a case of sending it to the OPG, and nothing more, I could understand if there was an admin fee but I can't see why there would be work to do at her hourly rate.


    What's confusing me is that if you are already on the LPA and your brother is just stepping down, I can't see why she would say that the LPA needs to be amended? When my MIL's LPA was registered, the solicitor kept the original for safekeeping, but my SIL was able to go to the solicitor's office and they handed it back to her no question, so it isn't clear to me why the solicitor can't just return the original to you for you to forward to the OPG, unless there is something more to be done.
     
  16. Terrypm

    Terrypm Registered User

    Nov 1, 2015
    16
    terrypm

    My brother sent in form lpa0555 and received a letter from them notifying him he had been disclaimed, i received a letter from them informing me i had been enabled as my mum had appointed me as replacement attorney in the event my brother can no longer act as attorney, I rang the solicitor as explained before and my brother rang her, she asked him to drop in his letter from the OPG but instead of just handing him the LPA, and i don't know why she didn't as i no longer speak to my brother, she took it and then wrote to me, the opening of her letter reads, Further to your telephone call we write to confirm your instructions to act for you for the amendment to your mother's LPA, she goes on to say,your brother telephoned to say he WAS standing down, surely that should be he HAS stood down? she then says we have submitted confirmation to the OPG that your brother is standing down as original attorney and that i will continue to act as replacement. Why has she? they already have confirmed in writing to both of us that this has all been done, unnecessary charges is all i can think of, i don't know yet but i bet she hasn't asked them to return the LPA to me because then she can charge me for telling me the LPA is back at her office, i feel like crying, As to your question on charges it says, the solicitor who will carry out the work on this case is a partner and her rates are £230 per hour+ vat,telephone calls received and made are recorded in units of 6 minutes (1 minute being 10% of the hourly rate). she says there will be additional fees known as disbursements such as court fees and charges for the official copy of the documents, which we will be obtaining for you from court. I am at a loss as to what she feels she needs to do when it is all done at the OPG end, the OPG told me when it is back to just go in there and insist on its return to me and tell her i am paying nothing as the document is legally mine, i will do this but if she won't give me it then what do i do?, there is a form i am to sign and return to her accepting her services and on receipt i emailed her immediately stating i did not ask her to act in any way and in fact did not need her to act in any way apart from returning the LPA to the OPG, I then put it in writing and hand delivered the next day, I have thought about it and she will probably charge me anyway for the phone call i made to her office in the beginning, for reading my email and letter and for the letter to OPG which she has included with the LPA.
     
  17. arielsmelody

    arielsmelody Registered User

    Jul 16, 2015
    511
    I think it is getting a bit confusing because you are saying that you don't need her to act in any way but then also saying that you want her to return the LPA form to the OPG, which is asking her to act on your behalf - you probably should have just said that you wanted the original LPA form to be returned to you, and left it at that.

    If she has returned the form on your behalf, she probably will want to charge something - hopefully it won't be too much. If the LPA is still in her office, I would ask for it straight back now, but if she's already done the work and sent it off there's not too much more you can do until it arrives back and you know what she wants to charge. Originally you said that you would expect your brother to pay - could you still do that?

    Have you tried talking to Citizen's Advice maybe?
     
  18. Terrypm

    Terrypm Registered User

    Nov 1, 2015
    16
    solicitor costs

    Hi, does anybody know what a solicitor charges for returning the original LPA to the office of public guardian.
     
  19. Terrypm

    Terrypm Registered User

    Nov 1, 2015
    16
    brother abusing poa

    Hi all, there is light at the end of the tunnel now, finally got the original lpa back and have registered with bank, so should be able to pay mums home care fees from Tuesday. I took all my evidence to the police, bank statements showing all mums money being transferred to my brother by my brother online, even though he had not registered the lpa with the bank, texts, emails etc between my brother and i . he has been interviewed and has said that in the beginning my mum gave him permission,nonsense waiting for letter from doctor proving she did not have capacity at the time, the police have told me my brother is going to try and get his pension early and repay, so the cps MAY not prosecute, if you fancy committing fraud, but have the means to pay back, it seems to me you will be fine, absolutely ridiculous, My brother asked me for mums acc details today so he can put the money back, I and my sisters have told the police we do not give a monkeys about the money £17000 by the way, the fact was he took all her money, used £416.00 overdraft and missed four payments of her care home fees £3300, My mum would be absolutely mortified.
    If you are considering making an LPA or a member of your family are,
    1, You can have a deputy, no-one should do on their own.
    2, Have a replacement attorney included,
    3, There is room for 5 people to be informed you are making an LPA, use all these safeguards, i only found all this out as my mum made me replacement attorney and so when i received the document, it all became clear, i would have been sent to sign at the creation of it, but i just went to the relevant page and signed, My brother told us only one person could be attorney, but no other information, my fault i realise, i should have gone through and read thoroughly.
     
  20. Terrypm

    Terrypm Registered User

    Nov 1, 2015
    16
    brother abusing poangs

    PS, if a family member has been diagnosed with dementia etc but still has an understanding of things, get all siblings together so a LPA can be made, choose and agree on an attorney, deputy and all other persons to be notified, it may save alot of heartache later on.
     

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