LPA - shut out by my nans carer

[Ninnut85]

Hello everyone,


I'm here to see if anyone can help me with my current situation. My nan was diagnosed with vascular dementia in 2017. At the time, I was her main carer and was informed by the doctor and our local dementia support team to look into getting LPA "sooner rather than later". My nan accepted the need for an LPA, and it was all signed and registered correctly with myself as an attorney. Spin on to today and my nans health, has deteriorated. She is still in her own home, but she has become more forgetful and more aggressive. I've had to step away from being her main carer as I have had my own medical issues and I’m now pregnant so being her carer has become too much for me.


She now has another lady (a friend of a friend) who comes in and helps with cleaning, cooking etc. When visiting my nan, I’ve noticed she started to become more hostile towards me and I found out she had been telling people that I’d been stealing from her (I obviously have done no such thing). I went around to visit the other day and her carer informed me that the support team had been to visit my nan and told them that she doesn't have dementia and she is fine. Obviously, I questioned this with her carer who just kept saying "no, she does not have dementia" and she even went as far as to say, "Well I had dementia last year and I got better! so you can get better from it!". Obviously, I was stunned by this remark and I’m now extremely worried for my nan. I'm very worried about what this lady is telling my nan and what she is convincing her of. Her carer refuses to accept dementia is an illness and keeps saying "it's just old age!". My nan is now refusing to accept she has dementia (which obviously isn’t too unsurprising as I believe this can be quite common) but I’m very worried about what else this carer is telling my nan and convincing her of. This makes the carer look even better in my nan’s eyes, as she’s come in and told her ‘you’re not ill, your granddaughter was just lying” which my nan is now more than happy to believe. I’m now the bad guy for ever caring for her as if she did have dementia. I believe her carer is using my nans illness to manipulate her and alienate her family. I 100% believe she is not acting my nans best interests, but she has convinced her, and others, that it’s actually me who has been mistreating her and that I’m a horrible person for believing that my nan has dementia.


Having the LPA for health and welfare, I went to our dementia support team, the one who supposedly informed my nan that she no longer has dementia, to go and talk to them to try and find out exactly what was said during this visit. Upon speaking to my nans assigned worker she informed me they had been told they are not allowed to talk to me under any circumstance. Even with the signed and registered LPA they told me that because they'd been asked not to talk to me, they can't and there is nothing they can do.


I am now extremely worried about what is going on but I’m unable to find out the truth. I believe her carer has convinced my nan to tell her support team not to talk to me. She seems to have her own agenda and has really done a number on my nan who now seems convinced I’m the enemy. She has managed to successfully shut out the only person who could step in and try to help my nan. I really don't know what to do.

This lady, who has basically convinced my nan to shut out her family and blocked my ability to find out what the truth of her illness and meetings are. I've now only got the word of her carer, who is still insisting the team told them she doesn't have dementia. I'm worried about what else she may have convinced my nan to do. I’m worried she might be stealing from her but I’m scared to go to the bank now in case they tell me they've been informed they can't talk to me either. I have no way now of being able to know what is happening with my nan. I refuse to believe the team would randomly turn up and tell my nan she doesn't have dementia, but I have no way of finding out the truth anymore. My nan is too confused and, I believe, under the spell of this carer to want to even talk to me anymore.

I feel that the LPA is basically worthless if it means I can’t now use it to help protect my nan. If all it takes is for someone to convince my nan to shut out the people who care for her then what is the point of an LPA in the first place? I feel so helpless

 

[love.dad.but..]

Did you register the health and welfare poa with her GP? Who has told the dementia unit that you should not be spoken to and has she had a formal diagnosis as she is known to them? Crucially in terms of when a health poa can inly be used...is your nan still deemed to have sufficient mental capacity to make decisions about her health and welfare? Did you register the poa with her bank in which case the bank will discuss with you as her attorney? Do you currently have any control through poa over her finances to mitigate the amount of funds your nan ie this carer has access to? Sorry a lot of questions for me from your worrying post.

I would escalate this urgently to as senior a name in Adult Safeguarding as you can find and raise your serious concerns in writing. Welcome to TP, sorry you have needed to find us but a listening ear and hopefully advice that will be useful.

 

[Bunpoots]

Hi @Ninnut85

I agree with @love.dad.but..

This is a serious safeguarding issue and you should register your concerns with everyone who will listen. Her GP and SS would be my first ports of call.

They may not be allowed to talk to you if your nan is deemed to have capacity but they will have to listen.

 

[karaokePete]

Hello @Ninnut85, you are welcome here, although that's a distressing situation that's brought you to the forum.

As the situation is complicated, may I suggest that a chat with the experts on the helpline may give you some useful pointers as to what to do next. The details are
National Dementia Helpline
0300 222 11 22
Our helpline advisers are here for you.
Helpline opening hours:
Monday to Wednesday 9am – 8pm
Thursday and Friday 9am – 5pm
Saturday and Sunday 10am – 4pm

 

[Ninnut85]

Thank you all for your replies.

I haven't registered my LPA with anyone apart from my local council as I needed to do that in order to discuss getting my nans council tax reduced because of her dementia diagnosis. I haven't felt the need to register it with anyone else as they've always been happy to talk to me previously.

Yes, she has had a formal diagnosis of dementia by this same dementia team back in 2017. As for who told the dementia team not to talk to me, I’m not sure. I can only assume it came from my nan, but I don't believe for a second my nan would do this on her own. I think she's been manipulated into doing it.

With regards to her mental capacity, I don't believe she is but it's not my decision. I would presume this is the dementia team’s decision and they won't talk to me so I’m unable to find out.

I haven't registered my LPA with her bank as I’ve never previously needed to. I have no access to any of her funds or the ability to view her funds or what funds her carer may have access to. It could be the bank hasn't been told not to talk to me and will if I register my LPA with them but after what happened with her dementia team, I’m afraid of what they might say if I try.


I am going to discuss this with my dad this weekend and we are going to put in a safeguarding concern with our local SS.

My nan has always been stubborn but since her dementia diagnosis she has become increasingly more stubborn. I'm very worried that SS might go out to see her and her carer will be there, and she may try to influence my nan and the social workers. If this carer has managed to convince my nan put a stop to me being able to talk to her dementia team, I’m worried what else she may have convinced my nan of and that SS will believe her and the lies her carer has managed to convince her of.

 

[Beate]

Who has hired the cater and who is paying her? If you have LPA, start inserting your influence and get this person replaced by someone else. Go and get the LPA registered with the bank - if there is fraud going on you need to know about it.

 

[Shedrech]

hi @Ninnut85
a warm welcome to TP
what a worrying situation you describe

I agree with you that approaching your nan's bank right now may raise more difficulties - it's my understanding that when the donor still has capacity, LPA for finance and property can be used with the permission of the donor to support the donor in managing finances - right now it appears that Adult Services/ dementia team are dealing with your nan as though they believe she has capacity and so has the right to manage her affairs (sadly however badly) and the right to withhold her permission for you to be involved - the LPA can only be registered with the bank without her agreement when she has been deemed to no longer have capacity
and the LPA for health and welfare only comes into effect when the donor no longer has capacity
often the call on capacity can be taken by the Attorney as cicumstances make it clear - however with your nan, Adult Services are involved and appear to be accepting that she has capacity, which complicates the issue

however, although Adult Services may not give you information or discuss your nan's situation with you, there's nothing to stop you giving them a thorough, detailed account of her situation and all your concerns, making it clear that LPAs are in place naming you, not the carer, as Attorney so your nan has evidenced her confidence in your knowledge of her wishes and your judgement and made it clear, when in sound mind, who she trusted to deal with her affairs on her behalf - if you phone Adult Services, be sure to follow up in writing, either by letter (keep a copy) or e-mail, to create a paper trail - and I agree with the others, send a copy to her GP and the head of Adult Services

 

[canary]

You could also write a letter to the dementia team to say that you are concerned because although she was diagnosed with dementia, she is now saying that she has been told that she doesnt have dementia, and also that she is accusing you of stealing and mistreating her. I always used to write to any doctors that mum saw to give my side of the story, otherwise they only hear what the person with dementia says - and that is not always right.

Many people with dementia get delusions. My mum was convinced that she did not have Alzheimers (she did) and that I was stealing from her and hitting her (I wasnt), even though she didnt have anyone agreeing with her or encouraging these delusions. This is so common in dementia, that it is almost diagnostic!

 

[marionq]

Yet another reason why POA should be registered straight away. If it was registered and confirmed then you can take it to GP or bank without problem. If it was never sent to the appropriate authority for registering then you have a bigger problem.

 

[Ninnut85]

Yet another reason why POA should be registered straight away. If it was registered and confirmed then you can take it to GP or bank without problem. If it was never sent to the appropriate authority for registering then you have a bigger problem.

What do you mean by registering it? If you mean registering it with the house of the public guardian, I have done that.

 

[Ninnut85]

Many people with dementia get delusions. My mum was convinced that she did not have Alzheimers (she did) and that I was stealing from her and hitting her (I wasnt), even though she didnt have anyone agreeing with her or encouraging these delusions. This is so common in dementia, that it is almost diagnostic!

I know, but when you have someone who refuses to accept dementia is even an thing. It's very difficult to resolve as they won't accept these as delusions, they take them on face value and that's what worries me about social services. If they go there to check on her and she tell them that i'm the bad guy and horrible, will they just believe her?

 

[Rosettastone57]

I know, but when you have someone who refuses to accept dementia is even an thing. It's very difficult to resolve as they won't accept these as delusions, they take them on face value and that's what worries me about social services. If they go there to check on her and she tell them that i'm the bad guy and horrible, will they just believe her?

Which is why you need to put things in writing as other posters have said outlining the fact you are her attorney . I always made sure that any professional who dealt with my mother-in-law had a written letter from me or even an email say exactly what was going on. My mother-in-law had many delusions and hallucinations and as other posters have said unfortunately it's very common for the person with dementia to think that there's nothing wrong with them. I never had any dealings with social services but with health professionals I made clear the sort of problems and difficulties and behaviours my mother-in-law was experiencing

 

[marionq]

If you have it registered with the PG then the health workers must talk to you otherwise there is no point to the POA. I think you need to ask for the person in charge to explain why they are overriding the POA. Send an email so you have a paper trail as well as phoning.

 

[Ninnut85]

If you have it registered with the PG then the health workers must talk to you otherwise there is no point to the POA. I think you need to ask for the person in charge to explain why they are overriding the POA. Send an email so you have a paper trail as well as phoning.

I did, they told me that because they have been told they can't talk to me about my nan's condition then they can't, regardless of whether I am an attorney or not. I said to them, what is the point of the POA if you won't talk to me about my nan. They just responded the same, because they've been told they can't, it doesn't matter about the POA, they cannot talk to me.

 

[Citroen 2cv]

How awful for you. I hope you get it sorted and all finances are ok. My son done something similar with my parents while my dad was alive and emptied their bank account of 1,000s. We live in Spain it is much easier with the poa than in U.K. good luck with everything

 

[love.dad.but..]

You mentioned talking dad about the situation...presuming that he is your Nan's son...can he get involved by initially visiting and talking to your nan in private when the carer is not there? Is he also an attorney for your Nan or are you sole attorney? This is a difficult problem if SS are blocking you for whatever reasons they have but proactive perseverance and making a nuisance of yourself with her GP..SS...emphasising your Nan's behaviours and your and presumably your Dad's serious concerns for a vulnerable adult at risk...in writing....to whoever you can think of involved is perhaps your only course of action.

 

[Lynmax]

Just a couple of points about the LPAs, as far as I understand anyway!

When the LPA for finance was filled in, your nan will have either agreed for the attorney to use it once capacity was lost or to use it immediately if necessary. My mum agreed that so we were able to take it to the bank without any medical confirmation of her AZ. The health and welfare one can only be used once capacity is lost ie when a doctor says it is. Hence why medical teams will not talk to you without that confirmation. I cannot even get my mums GP to keep me in the loop re appointments unless mum writes them a separate letter - which she will not do. So the receptionists have to put up with her making random phone calls and visits about appointments she may or may not have made! I think this serves them right for being intransigent!

So, you could indeed find that your nan, under the influence of this person, has told the bank not to deal with you. But the health workers have the right to refuse to tell you anything if you nan is deemed to still have some capacity.

I am sure your nan could change her LPA totally to exclude you as her attorney although I would hope that the OPG would contact you as part of the process.

I don't know how you can get around this persons influence unless the carer has been employed by social services in which case you might be able to raise your concerns. If she is privately employed then I suspect your rights are greatly reduced. How much capacity do you think your nan has?

 

[Ninnut85]

You mentioned talking dad about the situation...presuming that he is your Nan's son...can he get involved by initially visiting and talking to your nan in private when the carer is not there? Is he also an attorney for your Nan or are you sole attorney? This is a difficult problem if SS are blocking you for whatever reasons they have but proactive perseverance and making a nuisance of yourself with her GP..SS...emphasising your Nan's behaviours and your and presumably your Dad's serious concerns for a vulnerable adult at risk...in writing....to whoever you can think of involved is perhaps your only course of action.

Yes, he is my nan's son, but they have a very strained relationship, so he is very reluctant to see or talk to her, especially since her health has deteriorated. It's for this reason, I originally stepped in as her primary carer. That being said, he did visit and tried to talk to both my nan and her carer separately, but he isn't very good at handling these types of situations. He got annoyed at his mum who repeated the same things she has been saying about me and then got very angry at her carer and started shouting at her. So I’ve asked him to not speak to them again, he just can't handle the situation very well.

He has agreed to work with me on speaking to adult SS this weekend so hopefully together we might be able to help my nan.

Thank you everyone for your help. I really appreciate it.

 

[Ninnut85]

When the LPA for finance was filled in, your nan will have either agreed for the attorney to use it once capacity was lost or to use it immediately if necessary. My mum agreed that so we were able to take it to the bank without any medical confirmation of her AZ.

So, you could indeed find that your nan, under the influence of this person, has told the bank not to deal with you. But the health workers have the right to refuse to tell you anything if you nan is deemed to still have some capacity.

I am sure your nan could change her LPA totally to exclude you as her attorney although I would hope that the OPG would contact you as part of the process.

I don't know how you can get around this persons influence unless the carer has been employed by social services in which case you might be able to raise your concerns. If she is privately employed then I suspect your rights are greatly reduced. How much capacity do you think your nan has?

Thank you for your reply. My nan did indeed tick the 'can use immediately if necessary' box when we completed the POA. Will this mean the bank will talk to me, even if they have told them not to? I don't want to make matters worse by being refused in the bank if she has told them not to talk to me. I've never needed to speak to the bank on her behalf before, is it just a matter of going in with my LPA or do I need my nans bank card? I only want copies of her bank statement so I can see if her finances are still in order or not.


I have been concerned that she may try to change the LPA but I don't believe my nan is in any state to be able to do that on her own. Her capacity has deteriorated too much now for her to be able to understand what she would be requesting. I'm just worried she might be convinced or coached into doing it


She is privately employed. When I had to step away, my nan insisted she could cope for herself and didn't need a carer but through word of mouth and family/friend talks, the lady who is now her carer offered her services and said she'd be happy to step in and help her with cooking and cleaning etc. I had no idea it would lead down this road

 

[Beate]

Stop worrying what if, go to the bank with the LPA document and have it registered - you won't need your nan's bank card, just some ID for yourself. Best to make a proper appointment for this beforehand. Don't involve them in any "I hope you will speak to me" angst, just act confident, you're only doing your job as an attorney.

Then simply sack the carer and stop paying her - without money she'll soon disappear.