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LPA - Bank access - need advice

davepmb

Registered User
Sep 20, 2020
18
Hi,

My mom has dementia and was living with my sister who would take her money unfortunately.
I ended up getting LPA for my mums health and finances before she deteriorated and got worse and eventually mum had to be sectioned.
I was able to get her into a lovely care home but realised my sister had siphoned all my mum's money (£6000) which was all she had.

I took control of her bank account(provided given bank LPA papers etc so I have access to it) and the home she is in is subsidised and she gets funds paid into the account every week which I have now built up nicely and she is no longer in debt and she has around £15 000 in her account and I buy her clothes often and what ever else she needs.

Long story short, I no longer talk to my sister after confronting her about my mom's money, she hasn't visited her for the last 6 months at all according to the care home.

My question I have is thinking long term when my mum does pass would my sister be able to get any money from her account?
She is not on LPA for anything and the last thing I would want is for my sister to take more money.

Is there a legal way I can transfer majority of the money into my bank account and leave it there without any impact of my sister being able to access it or me being the LPA is it fine to leave the money in my mum's account?

I did read when our loved one passes the LPA stops which is why I am concerned my sister will come with her hand out and I don't know what the law is on this.


Thanks
 

Louise7

Registered User
Mar 25, 2016
2,467
Welcome @davepmb you'll find lots of friendly support and advice here. As you currently hold LPA your sister will not be able to access your mum's money at present so it will be safe where it is. Please don't try to transfer your mum's money into your own bank account as this is not necessary and may well cause problems for you as LPA. You are right, when your mum passes the LPA authority stops. The contents of her bank account will then be frozen and subsequently distributed as per her will. Does your mum have one?
 

davepmb

Registered User
Sep 20, 2020
18
Welcome @davepmb you'll find lots of friendly support and advice here. As you currently hold LPA your sister will not be able to access your mum's money at present so it will be safe where it is. Please don't try to transfer your mum's money into your own bank account as this is not necessary and may well cause problems for you as LPA. You are right, when your mum passes the LPA authority stops. The contents of her bank account will then be frozen and subsequently distributed as per her will. Does your mum have one?
Hi,

Unfortunately she does not have one.
 

nita

Registered User
Dec 30, 2011
1,935
Essex
Even if your Mum is intestate, I should think you as her Attorney would be counted as next of kin and therefore administrator of your Mum's estate. Perhaps someone else can advise if an Attorney has more authority than another relative to do this.

Where a person dies intestate funds are distributed according to set kinship rules - so in the absence of a spouse, both you and your sister would be entitled to equal amounts or if there are more children it would be distributed evenly accordingly.

Someone has to handle probate if assets are over a certain amount. The bank froze my mother's account but allowed me to pay funeral expenses via the funeral director's invoice. I completed all the probate forms (I am the eldest of two children and was my mother's COP Deputy). Other bank accounts and the insurance company released the funds (small amounts) but otherwise you have to give the grant of Probate to the banks.

 

nita

Registered User
Dec 30, 2011
1,935
Essex
Apologies - I should have said I received Letters of Administration rather than a Grant of Probate which is where someone has left a will.


When probate is not needed
You may not need probate if the person who died:

  • had jointly owned land, property, shares or money - these will automatically pass to the surviving owners
  • only had savings or premium bonds
Contact each asset holder (for example a bank or mortgage company) to find out if you’ll need probate to get access to their assets. Every organisation has its own rules.
 

davepmb

Registered User
Sep 20, 2020
18
Apologies - I should have said I received Letters of Administration rather than a Grant of Probate which is where someone has left a will.



When probate is not needed
You may not need probate if the person who died:

  • had jointly owned land, property, shares or money - these will automatically pass to the surviving owners
  • only had savings or premium bonds
Contact each asset holder (for example a bank or mortgage company) to find out if you’ll need probate to get access to their assets. Every organisation has its own rules.
Thank you,

tried to thank you but looks like it posted twice for another post, hope this works but thanks so much for all the comments so far.
 

Wildflowerlady

Registered User
Sep 30, 2019
224
Hi,

My mom has dementia and was living with my sister who would take her money unfortunately.
I ended up getting LPA for my mums health and finances before she deteriorated and got worse and eventually mum had to be sectioned.
I was able to get her into a lovely care home but realised my sister had siphoned all my mum's money (£6000) which was all she had.

I took control of her bank account(provided given bank LPA papers etc so I have access to it) and the home she is in is subsidised and she gets funds paid into the account every week which I have now built up nicely and she is no longer in debt and she has around £15 000 in her account and I buy her clothes often and what ever else she needs.

Long story short, I no longer talk to my sister after confronting her about my mom's money, she hasn't visited her for the last 6 months at all according to the care home.

My question I have is thinking long term when my mum does pass would my sister be able to get any money from her account?
She is not on LPA for anything and the last thing I would want is for my sister to take more money.

Is there a legal way I can transfer majority of the money into my bank account and leave it there without any impact of my sister being able to access it or me being the LPA is it fine to leave the money in my mum's account?

I did read when our loved one passes the LPA stops which is why I am concerned my sister will come with her hand out and I don't know what the law is on this.


Thanks
Hi @davepmb
My understanding is that as your mum has made no Will then anything she leaves when she passes will be distributed between yourself and sister equally assuming there are no other siblings. You are saying you want to stop your sister from receiving any money your mum leaves??
Nothing you can do will change the fact that sister is entitled by law to have an equal share of mums Estate although you do have a LPA so the final amount will be influenced by how you deal with your mums finances bearing in mind any spend must be in your mums best interest.
The time Funeral Expenses are paid mums Estate will have reduced a fair bit as well unless she already has a Funeral Plan as they aren't cheap and going up all the time. My mum has a Full Sized Headstone as she was buried and dad will join her in the same plot. Headstones are fairly expensive too.
The LPA becomes totally invalid when someone dies and its not wise to transfer mums money into a account under your name.. I do believe under a LPA you can purchase a Funeral Plan on behalf of your mum should you wish to do so.
As someone has already stated banks will actually release money to settle any funeral expenses as to be honest it was something my sister and I did ask at the time dads LPA was registered with the bank. We did discuss between us about getting a Funeral Plan for dad in light of the cost of mums funeral but never actually got round to doing anything. I believe Banks will only pay the money direct to the Funeral Company not to a relative so your sister can't take that money and do a runner.
My dad would not make a Will he has no property so he won't be leaving a house or very large amount of money so although it might have been a little easier to sort out his final affairs if he had done one we haven't pushed him to make one not that he would be capable now.

I have a terrible relationship with my sister she was more than happy for me to do all the paperwork when my mum passed four years ago whether this will be the case when my dad passes I don't know as things have gotten really bad now.
I don't actually think there is a set order as to whom can apply for Letters Of Administration it is usually expected to be a Next Of Kin if there is one available. I did any paperwork for my mums Estate such as it was she had no Will in place and dad was her closest Next Of Kin and sister is eldest daughter.
To be honest I dread how we will deal with it when dad passes although I have all the paperwork that is necessary come the day as I retained stuff like Dads Birth Certificate/Marriage Certificate, and small Insurance Policy. Some of dads documents were needed to sort some of mums paperwork out and dad couldn't deal with it..

The last thing I would want to do is have any arguments with my sister over anything my dad leaves so I don't intend to.
We are both Attorneys for dads Financial LPA its the only one he has and thus far have had no reason to think either of us have taken any large amounts from dads account. Any query's from sister have actually been over petty amounts which have been really silly but it is just one of the things she likes to pick me up on. I try not to take notice if an email appears with a query on for what might be a £1 pack of eggs for dad from the corner shop if it makes her happy I will just have to live with that answer her query and move on until the next time. I actually do almost all of dads shopping she usually deals with carers bill other stuff is on Direct Debit.
 

davepmb

Registered User
Sep 20, 2020
18
Hi @davepmb
My understanding is that as your mum has made no Will then anything she leaves when she passes will be distributed between yourself and sister equally assuming there are no other siblings. You are saying you want to stop your sister from receiving any money your mum leaves??
Nothing you can do will change the fact that sister is entitled by law to have an equal share of mums Estate although you do have a LPA so the final amount will be influenced by how you deal with your mums finances bearing in mind any spend must be in your mums best interest.
The time Funeral Expenses are paid mums Estate will have reduced a fair bit as well unless she already has a Funeral Plan as they aren't cheap and going up all the time. My mum has a Full Sized Headstone as she was buried and dad will join her in the same plot. Headstones are fairly expensive too.
The LPA becomes totally invalid when someone dies and its not wise to transfer mums money into a account under your name.. I do believe under a LPA you can purchase a Funeral Plan on behalf of your mum should you wish to do so.
As someone has already stated banks will actually release money to settle any funeral expenses as to be honest it was something my sister and I did ask at the time dads LPA was registered with the bank. We did discuss between us about getting a Funeral Plan for dad in light of the cost of mums funeral but never actually got round to doing anything. I believe Banks will only pay the money direct to the Funeral Company not to a relative so your sister can't take that money and do a runner.
My dad would not make a Will he has no property so he won't be leaving a house or very large amount of money so although it might have been a little easier to sort out his final affairs if he had done one we haven't pushed him to make one not that he would be capable now.

I have a terrible relationship with my sister she was more than happy for me to do all the paperwork when my mum passed four years ago whether this will be the case when my dad passes I don't know as things have gotten really bad now.
I don't actually think there is a set order as to whom can apply for Letters Of Administration it is usually expected to be a Next Of Kin if there is one available. I did any paperwork for my mums Estate such as it was she had no Will in place and dad was her closest Next Of Kin and sister is eldest daughter.
To be honest I dread how we will deal with it when dad passes although I have all the paperwork that is necessary come the day as I retained stuff like Dads Birth Certificate/Marriage Certificate, and small Insurance Policy. Some of dads documents were needed to sort some of mums paperwork out and dad couldn't deal with it..

The last thing I would want to do is have any arguments with my sister over anything my dad leaves so I don't intend to.
We are both Attorneys for dads Financial LPA its the only one he has and thus far have had no reason to think either of us have taken any large amounts from dads account. Any query's from sister have actually been over petty amounts which have been really silly but it is just one of the things she likes to pick me up on. I try not to take notice if an email appears with a query on for what might be a £1 pack of eggs for dad from the corner shop if it makes her happy I will just have to live with that answer her query and move on until the next time. I actually do almost all of dads shopping she usually deals with carers bill other stuff is on Direct Debit.
Thanks so much for the reply.
It just frustrates me she took £6k from my moms account in the beginning and left her with nothing which is why i had the fall out as I only want the very best for my mum and can totally see her coming back with her hand out when the time arises which I dread too.
 

Claire G

New member
Jun 16, 2020
3
Hi,

My mom has dementia and was living with my sister who would take her money unfortunately.
I ended up getting LPA for my mums health and finances before she deteriorated and got worse and eventually mum had to be sectioned.
I was able to get her into a lovely care home but realised my sister had siphoned all my mum's money (£6000) which was all she had.

I took control of her bank account(provided given bank LPA papers etc so I have access to it) and the home she is in is subsidised and she gets funds paid into the account every week which I have now built up nicely and she is no longer in debt and she has around £15 000 in her account and I buy her clothes often and what ever else she needs.

Long story short, I no longer talk to my sister after confronting her about my mom's money, she hasn't visited her for the last 6 months at all according to the care home.

My question I have is thinking long term when my mum does pass would my sister be able to get any money from her account?
She is not on LPA for anything and the last thing I would want is for my sister to take more money.

Is there a legal way I can transfer majority of the money into my bank account and leave it there without any impact of my sister being able to access it or me being the LPA is it fine to leave the money in my mum's account?

I did read when our loved one passes the LPA stops which is why I am concerned my sister will come with her hand out and I don't know what the law is on this.


Thanks
You can pay yourself £3000 gift per tax year and the first year £6000.00 - tbh you need to do it otherwise if you reach 23.5k you will have to pay for care.
 

davepmb

Registered User
Sep 20, 2020
18
You can pay yourself £3000 gift per tax year and the first year £6000.00 - tbh you need to do it otherwise if you reach 23.5k you will have to pay for care.
Thanks so much Claire!

I did not know this!!!

Is that £6000 the first time or first year?
And is it £3000 each year?

Anywhere I can read up about this?
I didn't know if you reach 23.5k you have to pay.
 

Louise7

Registered User
Mar 25, 2016
2,467
For info, the gifting of £3k per year relates to inheritance tax. As LPA you should not be gifting yourself large sums of money from your mum's account without first seeking approval from the OPG. If there is a possibility that your mum will need to fund her own care at some point in the future the local authority may also consider this to be deliberate deprivation of her assets in order to avoid paying care fees.
 

Sarasa

Registered User
Apr 13, 2018
1,850
Hmmm I'm not sure that @claireg is giving you good advice there, though I'm sure others that are more knowledgeable will be along in a minute to clarify. I think anything that could be construed as deliberately a deprivation of assets isn't going to be looked on kindly by the local authority.
 

davepmb

Registered User
Sep 20, 2020
18
For info, the gifting of £3k per year relates to inheritance tax. As LPA you should not be gifting yourself large sums of money from your mum's account without first seeking approval from the OPG. If there is a possibility that your mum will need to fund her own care at some point in the future the local authority may also consider this to be deliberate deprivation of her assets in order to avoid paying care fees.
Thank you
 

davepmb

Registered User
Sep 20, 2020
18
Hmmm I'm not sure that @claireg is giving you good advice there, though I'm sure others that are more knowledgeable will be along in a minute to clarify. I think anything that could be construed as deliberately a deprivation of assets isn't going to be looked on kindly by the local authority.
Thank you
 

Shedrech

Volunteer Moderator
Dec 15, 2012
9,310
Yorkshire
hi @davepmb
as her Attorney, you must manage your mum's affairs only in her best financial interests, so moving money out of her account into yours and giving large gifts (especially from such a low amount of savings) isn't acceptable, especially to keep her savings below the funding thresholds which is deliberate deprivation of assets and could render you yourself liable to repay what was taken out of her account - you can, of course, open up a new savings account in your mum's name, managed by you

if her income is low and her savings below £14250, then the LA fund her care, however all her pension is taken and Attendance Allowance ceases to be paid, except for a personal allowance of around £23 a week .... above that level of savings, your mum will contribute a percentage of her money, above £23250 she will fund herself (until savings fall below that figure) ... the LA calculate and arrange all this in line with their financial assessment of her income and assets

this may help explain

I'm not sure, therefore, how you've been able to build up any money from your mum to the level you mention .... unless she is receiving CHC funding, in which case she is fully funded and keeps her income and savings .... or, as you mention that she was sectioned, receiving the aftercare funding, so keeping her own income and savings .... in these 2 cases the thresholds mentioned above do not apply as the care is not funded by the L A .... however, I believe both these forms of funding can be withdawn if your mum's situation is re-assessed and then the terms mentioned above will begin to apply
 
Last edited:

davepmb

Registered User
Sep 20, 2020
18
hi @davepmb
as her Attorney, you must manage your mum's affairs only in her best financial interests, so moving money out of her account into yours and giving large gifts (especially from such a low amount of savings) isn't acceptable, especially to keep her savings below the funding thresholds which is deliberate deprivation of assets and could render you yourself liable to repay what was taken out of her account - you can, of course, open up a new savings account in your mum's name, managed by you

if her income is low and her savings below £14250, then the LA fund her care, however all her pension is taken and Attendance Allowance ceases to be paid, except for a personal allowance of around £23 a week .... above that level of savings, your mum will contribute a percentage of her money, above £23250 she will fund herself (until savings fall below that figure) ... the LA calculate and arrange all this in line with their financial assessment of her income and assets

this may help explain

I'm not sure, therefore, how you've been able to build up any money from your mum to the level you mention .... unless she is receiving CHC funding, in which case she is fully funded and keeps her income and savings .... or, as you mention that she was sectioned, receiving the aftercare funding, so keeping her own income and savings .... in these 2 cases the thresholds mentioned above do not apply as the care is not funded by the L A .... however, I believe both these forms of funding can be withdawn if your mum's situation is re-assessed and then the terms mentioned above will begin to apply
Thank you,

Yes she was sectioned previously then went into a care home and I was informed it will be funded as a result.
She gets weekly moneys which go direct into her account that I look after and haven't touched except for anything she requires like clothes, incontinence pads etc hence I have been able to build up over the last couple years.