Long distance caring challenges: mum's 'pocket money'

Dollydaydream1

Registered User
Sep 30, 2016
27
0
Hi
I have sole enduring power of attorney in relation to my mother, who lives on her own, and suffers with dementia. She manages to get by living on her own with some help. She has a 15 minute care visit a day to prompt her to take medication, but she is increasingly less able to manage her own affairs. She likes to go to the shops every day although she has a somewhat haphazard approach to what she buys. The days of planning a daily menu, or even the concept of regular meals are no longer of concern to my mother. But she will buy milk and cat food and values that part of her daily routine that she still has.

As I am often out of the country, I have been struggling to find a way to ensure that mum has a SMALL amount of cash available every day. Her carers do not provide this service and as I have registered the EPA with mum's bank, they will not give her money: she no longer has a cash card, and her cards are now under my charge. I thought there might be a way for mum to obtain small amounts of cash from the local post office for example, but I have been advised that to do so would require mum to present a debit card at the post office counter. She was frequently losing her cards in any case, but the situation is complicated by the fact that a close member of the family had previously been helping themselves to my mother's money using mum's debit card, and unfortunately now my mother has forgotten that this took place, and requires protection from this individual. So any solution needs to take account of the need to limit the amount of money mum keeps in the house as this individual is able to gain access.

Does anyone have a similar experience of long distance attorneyship? Any ideas of how to get round the problem of making sure mum always has a little cash at her disposal greatly appreciated.
 

jugglingmum

Registered User
Jan 5, 2014
7,085
0
Chester
Not sure if this would work, could your mum still manage a card?

You can get prepaid/cashloaded cards which you can transfer more to by internet banking so this may work.

There are different markets for them - some are aimed at those with poor credit history, some at the muslim market (as borrowing is interpreted as forbidden in the Koran), some at students so parents can top up remotely. If you can make it work won't really matter which one you get.

It might mean replacing the cards regularly when she loses them and I suspect it wouldn't work for long.
 

nmintueo

Registered User
Jun 28, 2011
844
0
UK
as I have registered the EPA with mum's bank, they will not give her money

Well, that doesn't make sense. You have the power of attorney, so they should do what you tell them to do. If you instruct them to allow her to draw money, that should be that.

I would suggest keeping a separate account in which you maintain a small balance, and tell the bank (in writing if necessary) that your mother should be able to withdraw cash in branch from that account.

Banks can be difficult sometimes, but persistence may pay off.

If it's a place where she is known and recognised, maybe they can do like this:
Mum hasn't had a bank card for 6 months yet they let her draw money out without ID because 'bank staff know her'.

(In that case the problem was to stop her from drawing out money, but there was no power of attorney).

With the LPA I have set the daily cash amount to £10, no problem!

Mam kept forgetting her pin and losing her cards and started to have to go into the bank to withdraw money. Her bank were ok with this and all of the staff know her now and keep an eye on her for us. We have asked them to get in touch with us if she withdraws any large amounts and they agreed but on the one occasion that she did, they didn't tell us. We still don't know where that money went. Mam says that I tripped her up in the street and stole it from her:eek:
 
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Dollydaydream1

Registered User
Sep 30, 2016
27
0
Not sure if this would work, could your mum still manage a card?

You can get prepaid/cashloaded cards which you can transfer more to by internet banking so this may work.

There are different markets for them - some are aimed at those with poor credit history, some at the muslim market (as borrowing is interpreted as forbidden in the Koran), some at students so parents can top up remotely. If you can make it work won't really matter which one you get.

It might mean replacing the cards regularly when she loses them and I suspect it wouldn't work for long.

Thanks for your suggestions. It definitely sounds worth investigating. Maybe I could manage it so there's only a small amount on the card at any one time. Thanks
 

Dollydaydream1

Registered User
Sep 30, 2016
27
0
Well, that doesn't make sense. You have the power of attorney, so they should do what you tell them to do. If you instruct them to allow her to draw money, that should be that.

I would suggest keeping a separate account in which you maintain a small balance, and tell the bank (in writing if necessary) that your mother should be able to withdraw cash in branch from that account.


If it's a place where she is known and recognised, maybe they can do like this:



Yes, good point. I will talk to the bank again. I couldn't understand why there wouldn't be a way round it either. I can't think that mum is the only one in this position. They must have had other similar queries, I would have thought.
 
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Dollydaydream1

Registered User
Sep 30, 2016
27
0
Progress?

Well, that doesn't make sense. You have the power of attorney, so they should do what you tell them to do. If you instruct them to allow her to draw money, that should be that.

I would suggest keeping a separate account in which you maintain a small balance, and tell the bank (in writing if necessary) that your mother should be able to withdraw cash in branch from that account.



If it's a place where she is known and recognised, maybe they can do like this:


(In that case the problem was to stop her from drawing out money, but there was no power of attorney).

I've just been on to the bank. First call was to their Power of Attorney helpline, whose answer was: sorry, since the EPA was logged, your mother is registered as 'mentally incapable' and therefore we cannot let her have access to her accounts. I would have given up at this point, however, encouraged by feedback on this forum, I persisted, explaining why mum needed access to some cash, with a limit on what she could access. They suggested I make an appointment with the branch manager as they do have some discretion. This is now booked for next Friday, and hopefully we can come up with a creative solution.
 

Shedrech

Registered User
Dec 15, 2012
12,649
0
UK
Hi Dollydaydream1
It's good that you have the meeting with your mum's bank manager and I hope something can be worked out for your particular circumstances

I do think it's important that banks take this general situation seriously - when a POA is registered with a bank it is a signal that the person with dementia is no longer deemed to have the capacity to cope /deal with their own financial affairs and therefore the Attorney is taking over control of bank accounts etc - so in general it wouldn't be right for the bank to continue to take instruction from the PWD, which includes an instruction from him/her to make a withdrawal from a current account - otherwise a PWD might withdraw far too much in error or be persuaded by a third party to make withdrawals, all without the knowledge of the Attorney who is legally responsible for the finances of the PWD

When I went to register dad's POA with his bank, the manager told me of an occasion when a family had come in to do this. Talking with them he pointed out to them that the parent actually was following the discussion and clearly understood how to deal with their own account, which they all agreed. He advised them that when a POA is registered the account holder can no longer have access to their accounts at all. The family all then agreed that they'd not understood this and they'd effectively come along too soon. The manager also said that he would not have agreed to registering the POA had they wanted to proceed as he had a duty to the person holding the account. This wasn't a case of a PWD in hostess mode; all the family agreed that the parent understood how to run their own accounts.
I think this was part of sounding me out as someone who'd come along to register a POA without the person whose accounts were involved, as dad had then moved to living in a care home (which I had to prove, along with my identity). After so many reports on TP of negative experiences with banks, I was impressed that the staff at dad's branch were all so clued up.
Sorry, a bit of a diversion - I do think it's important that banks take a great deal of care over who does and does not have access to accounts for which an Attorney has responsibility.
 

Beate

Registered User
May 21, 2014
12,179
0
London
This is what the government says: https://www.gov.uk/enduring-power-attorney-duties/overview

"You can start using an EPA at any time if the EPA is legal and the donor gives you permission.

You’ll be responsible for helping the donor make decisions about their finances. Depending on their instructions you’ll help manage things like their:

money and bills
bank and building society accounts
property and investments
pensions and benefits
There may be other attorneys - if there are, check how the donor wants you to make decisions.

You must register the EPA when the donor starts to lose or has lost their mental capacity. This means they can’t make a decision at the time it needs to be made because of a mental impairment.

You must still involve the person in making decisions whenever possible and only make decisions on their behalf which are in their best interests."

I would quote this last paragraph back to the bank. It acknowledges that there still might be some capacity left after registration and with allowing your mum some money, you are still involving her as the LPA says you should.
 

nmintueo

Registered User
Jun 28, 2011
844
0
UK
Good luck at the bank on Friday; I hope they can help.

While the EPA empowers you to control your mother's accounts and pay her an allowance, I can see it could be problematic for the bank to facilitate withdrawals by someone who is no longer able use a card - do they know her face / does she carry any ID / can she sign her name on a receipt? This really does rely on the bank's discretion.

And, are they aware that there's a history of financial abuse by a family member locally? That could naturally make them very wary. For example, what if your mother shows up at the bank and she's not alone - then what do they do?

And even if the bank is able to help, to be completely sure of preventing any large withdrawals, you'd have to avoid having large balances in any other account at that bank that she might draw on (whether by mistake or under influence).
 
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Jessbow

Registered User
Mar 1, 2013
5,679
0
Midlands
Are you expecting the bank to gauge how much is reasonable and how frequently?

What will happen when she turns up on the third day in a row and demands £100?

Will a bank say ''sorry Mrs x, you cant have it?''

That's where your problem will lay. I wish you luck!
 

nmintueo

Registered User
Jun 28, 2011
844
0
UK
In reality, and in law, mental capacity isn't an all-or-nothing proposition. Someone may well have capacity to decide to take out £30 and go to the shops, while not having the capacity to decide to take out a mortgage.

This publication by Mental Health Foundation makes some pertinent points:

Banking on good decisions
How can the Mental Capacity Act help you with your bank, building society or post office account?

http://www.mentalhealth.org.uk/publications/banking-good-decisions-full-text-version

If a bank (or building society or post office) believes for certain that as a customer you do not have mental capacity to make a decision about your money they may be reluctant to serve you. The bank could have to explain why they did this. If they do let you make a decision, or let someone on your behalf to make that decision, the bank could also have to explain why they did this.

Nobody should assume that because a person lacks capacity to make one decision they lack the capacity to make other decisions.

In the past it was often assumed that once an EPA was registered the person had permanently lost capacity and bank staff would only deal with the attorney. For more information on EPAs contact the OPG at www.publicguardian.gov.uk

Unfortunately, this is not just something that happened 'in the past'; it's something that is still happening:

I've just been on to the bank. First call was to their Power of Attorney helpline, whose answer was: sorry, since the EPA was logged, your mother is registered as 'mentally incapable' and therefore we cannot let her have access to her accounts.
[The bank manager] advised them that when a POA is registered the account holder can no longer have access to their accounts at all.

A blanket all-or-nothing approach might be simplest for the banks, but it's not exactly consistent with the Mental Capacity Act or with this general guidance from the British Bankers' Association:

Long-term conditions (critical and chronic illness): A briefing for banking staff
February 2015

https://www.bba.org.uk/policy/retai...chronic-illness-a-briefing-for-banking-staff/


Note: I am not suggesting that Dollydaydream1 should go all legalistic on the bank manager - probably not the best approach. Keep it simple; if they say they couldn't control how much money is withdrawn, that's OK, because you can do that yourself by limiting the available balance.


That 'Banking on good decisions' publication was mentioned in the Alzheimer's Society 'Living with dementia' magazine September 2010, and is also available on some local government sites such as these:
http://www.northyorks.gov.uk/article/24064/What-if-I-can-no-longer-manage-my-financial-affairs
https://www.essex.gov.uk/Business-P...es/Mental-Capacity-Act-for-professionals.aspx
 

Dollydaydream1

Registered User
Sep 30, 2016
27
0
Hi Dollydaydream1
It's good that you have the meeting with your mum's bank manager and I hope something can be worked out for your particular circumstances

I do think it's important that banks take this general situation seriously - when a POA is registered with a bank it is a signal that the person with dementia is no longer deemed to have the capacity to cope /deal with their own financial affairs and therefore the Attorney is taking over control of bank accounts etc - so in general it wouldn't be right for the bank to continue to take instruction from the PWD, which includes an instruction from him/her to make a withdrawal from a current account - otherwise a PWD might withdraw far too much in error or be persuaded by a third party to make withdrawals, all without the knowledge of the Attorney who is legally responsible for the finances of the PWD

When I went to register dad's POA with his bank, the manager told me of an occasion when a family had come in to do this. Talking with them he pointed out to them that the parent actually was following the discussion and clearly understood how to deal with their own account, which they all agreed. He advised them that when a POA is registered the account holder can no longer have access to their accounts at all. The family all then agreed that they'd not understood this and they'd effectively come along too soon. The manager also said that he would not have agreed to registering the POA had they wanted to proceed as he had a duty to the person holding the account. This wasn't a case of a PWD in hostess mode; all the family agreed that the parent understood how to run their own accounts.
I think this was part of sounding me out as someone who'd come along to register a POA without the person whose accounts were involved, as dad had then moved to living in a care home (which I had to prove, along with my identity). After so many reports on TP of negative experiences with banks, I was impressed that the staff at dad's branch were all so clued up.
Sorry, a bit of a diversion - I do think it's important that banks take a great deal of care over who does and does not have access to accounts for which an Attorney has responsibility.

Thanks for this. I appreciate that banks have a responsibility in this respect. It just feels a little too black and white, to label somebody as 'mentally incapable', as if that sums them up, whereas the truth is more grey, and somewhere in between. Mum has good and bad days too. It's a difficult situation and we are both trying to do 'the right thing' as best we can.
 

Dollydaydream1

Registered User
Sep 30, 2016
27
0
"You can start using an EPA at any time if the EPA is legal and the donor gives you permission.

You’ll be responsible for helping the donor make decisions about their finances. Depending on their instructions you’ll help manage things like their:

money and bills
bank and building society accounts
property and investments
pensions and benefits
There may be other attorneys - if there are, check how the donor wants you to make decisions.

You must register the EPA when the donor starts to lose or has lost their mental capacity. This means they can’t make a decision at the time it needs to be made because of a mental impairment.

You must still involve the person in making decisions whenever possible and only make decisions on their behalf which are in their best interests."

I would quote this last paragraph back to the bank. It acknowledges that there still might be some capacity left after registration and with allowing your mum some money, you are still involving her as the LPA says you should.

Thanks, this is really useful, and is the way that I understood the position of an attorney too. I will definitely bear this in mind in my discussion with the bank.
 
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Dollydaydream1

Registered User
Sep 30, 2016
27
0
Meeting with bank

Hi
Last Friday I had a meeting with mother's bank's POA expert, and I'm pleased to say that they were very amenable to mum being issued with a card in her name. They suggested a new savings account, and offered to set up a regular transfer of 50 pounds into this account. The card has a PIN however, mum will not require this if she goes to the bank counter to draw out money, and will also be able to use it to take money out of an ATM and at the local post office, as long as she can remember her PIN.
Advantages are that mum will retain some degree of independence although it remains to be seen whether she will be able to make her way to the bank on her own by bus, and/or go to the local post office, ATM. There will also be the protection that she will only be able to access a small amount of money. The bank is to put a note on mum's account so they are aware of our particular concerns.
However there are also lots of unknowns: will mum understand and remember how to obtain money? Will she remember her PIN, will she lose her card? The bank advised that if she turns up at the bank without her card, there are ways to allow her access to her account. She will need to be able to answer certain questions (name, date of birth, address, I think). She should also have her bus pass with her if she has made it into town, and so this would be additional identification.

I have just received the cards, and am building myself up to go round and explain this to her. I have to be in the right frame of mind to cope with this too. We'll see how she gets on!
 

jhoward

Registered User
Aug 3, 2011
183
0
87
west sussex
Hi
Last Friday I had a meeting with mother's bank's POA expert, and I'm pleased to say that they were very amenable to mum being issued with a card in her name........
However there are also lots of unknowns: will mum understand and remember how to obtain money? Will she remember her PIN, will she lose her card? The bank advised that if she turns up at the bank without her card, there are ways to allow her access to her account. She will need to be able to answer certain questions (name, date of birth, address, I think). She should also have her bus pass with her if she has made it into town, and so this would be additional identification.

I have just received the cards, and am building myself up to go round and explain this to her. I have to be in the right frame of mind to cope with this too. We'll see how she gets on!

Would it be worth writing a short "how to " list on a postcard that could fit into her purse?
 

nmintueo

Registered User
Jun 28, 2011
844
0
UK
That sounds encouraging - better than 'we can't help', anyway.

Given that "She was frequently losing her cards in any case" before, the same problem seems likely now. Did she lose cards specifically (rather than losing her purse or handbag containing the cards)? Because that would imply that she took the cards out somewhere (perhaps to use the ATM) and lost them in that process.

Maybe best to give the ATM a miss and just encourage her to go into the branch; a teller can help her better than a machine can.

She gets to the shops on her own; is the bank not nearby?
 
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Dollydaydream1

Registered User
Sep 30, 2016
27
0
Would it be worth writing a short "how to " list on a postcard that could fit into her purse?

That's a good idea in principle but my mother has got out of the habit of using a purse or a handbag, and whenever I suggest it, she looks very confused, as if I'm suggesting a totally new concept to her, that nobody has ever tried before, She has taken to keeping her money in a pocket of her rain coat, which she wears every day (rain or shine). This does concern me as, although the pockets have zips, I have noticed that she does not always zip them up, although she says she does. Also, she has several rain coats, all of which have several pockets, so we quite often find money all over the place, and part of her daily routine is hunting through all her pockets, for money, (and also hankies, another of her obsessions, but that's another story). She used to have a neat little handbag which she has lost. Perhaps I should get her another, and try that. .
 

Dollydaydream1

Registered User
Sep 30, 2016
27
0
That sounds encouraging - better than 'we can't help', anyway.

Given that "She was frequently losing her cards in any case" before, the same problem seems likely now. Did she lose cards specifically (rather than losing her purse or handbag containing the cards)? Because that would imply that she took the cards out somewhere (perhaps to use the ATM) and lost them in that process.

Maybe best to give the ATM a miss and just encourage her to go into the branch; a teller can help her better than a machine can.

She gets to the shops on her own; is the bank not nearby?

Yes maybe I'll start with that. She would have to get the bus to the bank though as it's a couple of miles away.
 

Dollydaydream1

Registered User
Sep 30, 2016
27
0
Update

So it's been a few months now since we put arrangements in place for mum to access cash from the bank, and I thought it might be useful to post an update on how this has worked so far. Mum has taken the bus into town to take money out on several occasions. Curiously, she has no recollection after the event of what she has done. For example, a couple of weeks ago I went round to visit mum and we had the usual chat about what she had been doing. She could not remember where she had been that morning. I asked her if she had been to the bank perhaps, and she seemed very confused by this question. She looked at me and said - ' why would you think that?'. I checked later and in fact she had been into the bank that morning to take out money. It seems almost as if she is on automatic pilot. She does things but cannot remember afterwards, even if it's only an hour ago. Such a strange disease.