Latest Financial Assessment

Discussion in 'I care for a person with dementia' started by Greyone, Nov 24, 2015.

  1. Greyone

    Greyone Registered User

    Sep 11, 2013
    381
    Male
    UK
    My family has just had its 3rd financial assessment for our mother. her liquid assets up to about £25K (rounded up from the upper limit i know). This one takes in the value of our mother's house. I have become increasingly curious and concerned at the given idea that we should obtain a free valuation from an estate agent. Although this might sound like a good idea I am concerned about the sort of message this would send out. My sister and I hope to live in the house for as long as humanly possible and i think that asking an estate agent for a free valuation on the house assumes that we will at some stage wish to sell the house. That implicitly we would be saying "Give us a free valuation and when the time comes we'll use you to sell it". Although this sound fine if you want to strike that kind of bargain intentionally I am concerned that we would be using this tactic for wholly the wrong purpose.

    I'm sure many people have been down this road and either managed to hold on to their familly home, had definite plans to leave or even a change of heart.

    I would be very interested to hear from anyone who has used this tactic without any planned intention to move, whether in should be considered acceptable and would not lay our familly open to unwelcome advances.

    Thx
     
  2. Bod

    Bod Registered User

    Aug 30, 2013
    1,158
    #2 Bod, Nov 24, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2015
    Free valuation, when there is no intention to sell, is just an occupational hazard to estate agents.

    Bod

    Edit to add.
    If you already live there and meet certian conditions the house may be disregarded.
     
  3. Katrine

    Katrine Registered User

    Jan 20, 2011
    2,850
    England
    #3 Katrine, Nov 24, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2015
    Estate Agent's valuations vary widely and are based on likely sales value - in their experience. It depends on how quickly you want a sale, and whether that particular agent is used to selling that type of property in your area. If you aren't telling the person why you want the valuation you may be given inaccurate information. Why not just tell them up front, even if it involves a small fee? They may still offer it for free, in the hope that you'll use them in future.

    I used a chartered surveyor for my mum's house, in order to have an accurate estate valuation for OPG.
    We also do not intend to sell. It cost £300 for the report 2 years ago, and another £228 this year for the revaluation.

    The surveyor was helpful in pointing out some minor external repairs that needed doing, and advised on how much the value of the property might increase if we did a loft conversion. As it turned out he revalued the property this year at £50K higher than 2 years ago, so the loft conversion added greater value than he had originally advised. We didn't do it for that reason, we did it because we needed the extra rooms to accommodate her carers.
     
  4. Greyone

    Greyone Registered User

    Sep 11, 2013
    381
    Male
    UK
    Thanks for your feedback. I am greatly interested in the fact that you had your property re-valued. Was this a requirement of your LA as part of a re-assessment ?
    I must admit that i never thought that after going through this we may need to re-value as part of a re-assessment. But we too would like to know what condition are mothers house is in and what we may be faced with if we ever sell. Thanks very much for the reply.
     
  5. Greyone

    Greyone Registered User

    Sep 11, 2013
    381
    Male
    UK
    We are considering the disregard and wonder if that may be possible and under what conditions. But what you say comes as no surprise really.
     
  6. Kevinl

    Kevinl Registered User

    Aug 24, 2013
    4,781
    Salford
    Getting a free valuation off an estate agent is just like getting a quote off a plumber or a builder, if I want some big job doing I might get 2 or 3 quotes, it's not a problem to them given how much estate agents charge for their services 15 minutes of their time to maybe get £5,000 worth of business isn't a problem to them.
    As regards staying in the house then the LA can do a disregard on the property, it won't be their preferred option but if it means putting you and your sister out on the street in which case they'd then have to rehouse both of you as involuntarily homeless and given that you have been caring for your mother means with a fight you'd have a reasonable chance of getting the disregard, you simply have to keep telling them you'll fight it all the way and be prepared to do so.
    K
     
  7. arielsmelody

    arielsmelody Registered User

    Jul 16, 2015
    513
    If you just want to get a feeling for the current value of the property, have you tried the various house price websites out there - I've found rightmove, zoopla and home.co.uk are the most useful. It does depend on the type of property a bit - they work better for a modern house on an estate rather than an old rundown cottage in the middle of nowhere, but they might be somewhere to start.
     
  8. Katrine

    Katrine Registered User

    Jan 20, 2011
    2,850
    England
    #8 Katrine, Nov 24, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2015
    Nothing to do with the LA, it was for the COP and OPG. Submitting a revised valuation to these bodies is only necessary if you are reapplying for COP authority (which we will need to do in 18 months time when our 3-year Scottish Guardianship expires). The first valuation was to provide the value of hereditable property for our Guardianship application. This was an essential requirement.

    We chose to have the 2nd valuation this year because we wanted to evidence that the £32K we had spent on house and garden improvements was reflected in the increased value of the property. Although the OPG had approved the spend in the Management Plan, we thought it would be helpful information. We are also buying an equity release product, so need a current valuation for that.
     
  9. Pete R

    Pete R Registered User

    Jul 26, 2014
    2,046
    Staffs
    Kevin,
    The LA are under no obligation to rehouse someone in these circumstances and if it really was a case of "simply" telling them then my continuing and so far 18 month battle would surely be over.
     
  10. Pete R

    Pete R Registered User

    Jul 26, 2014
    2,046
    Staffs
    Hi Greyone, I do not know your full circumstances so am sorry if my assumptions are wrong. There is a link below that explains how property is assessed, including the disregards, at the end.:)

    There are 2 types of disregard.........
    Mandatory....If you and your sister were living in there are some exceptions) your Mother's house before she went into care and are aged over 60 or incapacitated (the definition is in the link) then the LA must not include the value of the house in their assessment. They would do this automatically so I guess you do not fit either.

    Discretionary.....Before your Mother went into care you must have given up your own home (or lived with your Mother for a long time) so as to provide care for her.

    It is a discretion and one that my LA has not exercised in 17 cases over the last 5 years.:rolleyes: It is very long and arduous process with no guarantee of success at all.:(

    If you do not think either of those apply to you then the value of the house will be included but may not have to be sold.

    The LA should offer a Deferred Payment Agreement whereby they pay the CH (which can include any top up) and then on your Mother's death get paid back. They can force the sale of the house for this or it can be paid by any other means.

    Just to go back to you original question of the valuation. Under normal circumstances you may not really need one. The LA will have looked on line and for the assessment given an approximate value. You may wish to question it but if you think that amount will be enough to cover your Mother's costs for her lifetime then there is no need. If you feel circumstances change over the subsequent years then you can question it at the next assessment.

    Hope that helps.:)


    http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...btVmFVK27oc2Ug&bvm=bv.108194040,d.bGQ&cad=rjt
     
  11. Greyone

    Greyone Registered User

    Sep 11, 2013
    381
    Male
    UK
    Katrine - Thanks very much for clearing that up. I'm a bit miffed with all these financial assessments because they fail to explain to us what's going on. So i resort to confirming everything by e-mail and double checking everything.
     
  12. Greyone

    Greyone Registered User

    Sep 11, 2013
    381
    Male
    UK
    Thanks for that. I used Zoopla to get a rough idea of the house and each time they ask i move my estimate down. I'm glad to hear that there is know problem and i like you getting 3 quotes comparison. It may be necessary for us to do that so we know we have an accurate value.
     
  13. looviloo

    looviloo Registered User

    May 3, 2015
    464
    Female
    Cheshire
    I had dad's house valued a couple of months ago, by two local agents, and compared the valuations to an online website (zoopla, I think) and they all agreed with one another... within a few thousands. So you could probably start with an online valuation with reasonable degree of confidence.

    Having said that, I wouldn't worry about getting a valuation from an estate agent, it's their job. I've had a couple of follow up phone calls, where they've been trying to pin me down, but the house isn't ready for sale yet so that's what I've told them and they haven't bothered me since :). Good Luck!

    PS Just seen your reply re zoopla... our posts crossed!
     
  14. Greyone

    Greyone Registered User

    Sep 11, 2013
    381
    Male
    UK
    Thanks for your word of caution. I have seen your other post and the pdf link. I'll have a read through these both before i reply. I am most interested in that during our assessment , she only said that they would place a charge against the house , she never used the term deferred payment, in fact she avoided mentioning that twice and now i can see why. One of the things she left us with was a list of documents that she needed. It is called "Documents required for a deferred Payment Agreement following a Financial Assessment for residential/nursing care". So she deftly avoided any discussion of the subject during the assessment.

    The most useful piece of advice i received from one organisation was to "Avoid feeling pressured into making a decision too quickly." That is something that is constantly at the front of my mind. So my first activity is to always understand what is urgent and what is not.

    Thanks once again.
     
  15. Pete R

    Pete R Registered User

    Jul 26, 2014
    2,046
    Staffs
    I am not so sure it was altogether avoided as a charge would have to placed on the house for a DPA to go ahead. Depending of the set up costs and any interest they charge (if any, as my LA do not) it may not be suitable for you so it might be worth getting independent financial advice.
     
  16. Greyone

    Greyone Registered User

    Sep 11, 2013
    381
    Male
    UK
    Hi Peter R and thanks very much for your posting.

    I have to say that i am a bit angry because during our financial assessment, are assessor referred twice to putting a charge against the house and never once mentioned that it was called a deferred payment. So that is one of our opportunities to discuss this gone.

    I have studied the details of the mandatory disregard and they are very specific and regrettably in no way cover us. So at the moment at least, we are planning to go down the discretionary route. My sister and I have always lived in our family home , now for over 50 years, but i believe emotional attachment is not taken into account . But we have provided care for several years even before we had care at home for her and this will probably form part of our appeal.

    I've heard about people making freedom of information requests to find out how many discretionary disregards have been agreed, but since the new care act came into force, i'm not sure how applicable data is going back 5 years, although what you say is a cautionary tale.

    Given that the LA is asking for paperwork for a deferred payment i think what they will do is offer us one. During the assessment they have suggested that interest will only be applied when our mother has passed away , but then again that may not be the complete truth given her past performance. This weekend I'm going to have to read the factsheets she has provided before deciding how to proceed. In these situations i am more than disappointed and unsurprised that they are not more open and transparent.

    I must point out that during our previous assessment, i was asked what i thought the value of the house was. For the OPG our solicitor said that a rough estimate only was required. So using Zoopla i came up with an estimate of £205K. I have since dropped that to £200K for this last assessment, they have now asked for an estate agents estimate which prompted my original question. I feel a bit more confident about doing that now.

    If the Deferred payment is for the full valuation of the house and that comes out at £200K, then a simple calculation , ignoring the first 12 weeks and inflation, the deferred payment will last just over 4 years (being self funding because of her capital she currently pays £920 per week) . Personally i am hoping my mother will last longer than that. When my mother was LA funded for two weeks we still had ot pay a £60 top-up and during the appointment that was alluded to.

    So the plan now appears to be the the LA will take over funding for 12 weeks when we will pay a top-up of about £60. She will then become self funded again, we will get back her attendance allowance and the cost of her care will be met with the attendance allowance, until that runs out and she will then become LA funded again. But my latest knowledge says that interest will only be payable when our mother dies.

    I must admit i have not yet given thought to when the next assessment will be.

    Thanks for all of your advice and i wish you success.
     
  17. Pete R

    Pete R Registered User

    Jul 26, 2014
    2,046
    Staffs
    During the 12 week disregard you say the top up is £60??? I take it from that your Mother has a very (very) good pension coming in?

    With a DPA the LA will only allow a certain percentage of the value of the house to be used before they stop it so it may be less than 4 years. Have you considered what happens then? Someone is going to have to pay an enormous top up if your Mother is to remain in that home as the LA will not fund that kind of amount.

    Since you have lived in the house all your life and cared for your Mother you have a good chance of getting a Discretionary Disregard. You need to apply for it now and really should have been discussed at the first Financial Assessment.

    However a word of warning!!!! If a house is disregarded the LA are under NO obligation to offer a DPA, meaning someone will have to pay the top up.

    When your Mother dies the full amount of the DPA debt becomes payable and not just the interest. There are new rules under the Care Act on debt recovery but they can, via the courts, force a sale.

    :)
     
  18. Witzend

    Witzend Registered User

    Aug 29, 2007
    4,295
    SW London
    If any similar properties have sold recently, nethouseprices is a good place to check actual sold prices, which may be a fair bit different from asking prices.
     
  19. Greyone

    Greyone Registered User

    Sep 11, 2013
    381
    Male
    UK
    #19 Greyone, Nov 25, 2015
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2015
    The top-up is to be paid by the family when she is LA funded. That's because the care home where she is do accept council contract rates but with the top up. Other care homes further away that we looked at run on the same lines but with different top-ups.

    I am aware that it is the whole deferred payment that will need to be re-payed not just any accrued interest.

    We were only just told about this on Monday and obviously we need to find out what the long term picture is with a deferred payment. We have had some information by word of mouth which is easy to be mistaken. So we intend to find out more about how deferred payments are operated by our council. I'll post the results of our investigation as soon as we hear. So do be patient and keep an eye open here.

    As always thx for posting.
     
  20. Pete R

    Pete R Registered User

    Jul 26, 2014
    2,046
    Staffs
    I have already entered into one on Mom's behalf.;)
     

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