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Lasting Powers of Attorney

whileaway

Registered User
Dec 11, 2015
129
I am trying to set these up for my parents, using a form bought at a bookstore. But I want to include family friends of theirs, younger people, who are very trustworthy and live nearby. I hate to say this, but I don't altogether trust myself and sibling to handle things properly. We are odd, and I want stable, normal, people to weigh in, both in welfare and financial matters. My brother thinks this is horrible. He says in his experience, the estate is always stolen, and thinks that a friend would manage that. I believe that he does expect some inheritance after their deaths, while am too often depressed to even care. They are 91 and 94, one a carer for the other.
 
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Bod

Registered User
Aug 30, 2013
1,251
I am trying to set these up for my parents, using a form bought at a bookstore. But I want to include family friends of theirs, younger people, who are very trustworthy and live nearby. I hate to say this, but I don't altogether trust myself and sibling to handle things properly. We are odd, and I want stable, normal, people to weigh in, both in welfare and financial matters. My brother thinks this is horrible. He says in his experience, the estate is always stolen, and thinks that a friend would manage that. I believe that he does expect some inheritance after their deaths, while am too often depressed to even care. They are 91 and 94, one a carer for the other.
On the assumption that you are in the UK.
Lasting Power of Attorney can only be granted by the Office of the Public Guardian, using the forms available from them.
Nothing else will do.

Go to the OPG website, all is explained there.
The forms are reasonably easy to understand, and don't need a solicitor.

Bod
 

lin1

Registered User
Jan 14, 2010
9,319
East Kent
I am trying to set these up for my parents, using a form bought at a bookstore. But I want to include family friends of theirs, younger people, who are very trustworthy and live nearby. I hate to say this, but I don't altogether trust myself and sibling to handle things properly. We are odd, and I want stable, normal, people to weigh in, both in welfare and financial matters. My brother thinks this is horrible. He says in his experience, the estate is always stolen, and thinks that a friend would manage that. I believe that he does expect some inheritance after their deaths, while am too often depressed to even care. They are 91 and 94, one a carer for the other.
Hello, if your in the UK ,you can use the LPA online forms on this government site , I found them easy to complete.
https://www.gov.uk/power-of-attorney/overview
 

Beate

Registered User
May 21, 2014
11,988
London
To be honest, it doesn't really matter what you or your brother think. The people who have to be in agreement are the donors, ie your parents, as they are granting the power, and the attorneys to be, ie those family friends. It's your parents' choice and if they think they are trustworthy then let them go ahead.

I agree with the others - forms from a bookstore? They are available online or can be ordered on the phone from the Office of Public Guardian, completely for free. This way you also know you have the latest version.
 

mrjelly

Registered User
Jul 23, 2012
314
West Sussex
I am not legally qualified, but I think that if you, your brother and your friends were set up as joint and several attorneys for finance, then whoever wanted could take on the active management while the other(s) just received periodic statements and accounts. You could list a solicitor as a replacement attorney in case you all fell out!

Ultimately, it's who your parents want to manage their affairs that really counts.
 

Chemmy

Registered User
Nov 7, 2011
7,591
Yorkshire
Are you sure you or your brother should be attorneys if, as you say yourself, "I don't altogether trust myself and my sibling to handle things properly"?

If I was one of these friends, the legal responsibilities of being part of such a 'team' in charge of your parents affairs would worry me.

Do your parents definitely still both have capacity to sign the forms? If so, what are their views?
 

whileaway

Registered User
Dec 11, 2015
129
To be honest, it doesn't really matter what you or your brother think. The people who have to be in agreement are the donors, ie your parents, as they are granting the power, and the attorneys to be, ie those family friends. It's your parents' choice and if they think they are trustworthy then let them go ahead.

I agree with the others - forms from a bookstore? They are available online or can be ordered on the phone from the Office of Public Guardian, completely for free. This way you also know you have the latest version.
I know, but my mother doesn't like to face such things, and I want to have all of the possibilities to set before her. Perhaps I like chaos, as she says, but I wonder if there are an infinite number of permutations for the powers of the various attorneys- this one can make this particular decision on their own, while as this one needs that other one to comply r.e. this other decision. And this one can make all decisions on finance, but needs an accompanying one for care. Is there someone who had been through this that will give me stories as to how it breaks down? It's confusing because I am American, as are they, but they are residents, and I am just a visitor.
 

whileaway

Registered User
Dec 11, 2015
129
Do people actually put the final directive- about receiving care in their last moments, in this statement? How does one know how one will feel at the last? Maybe every hour will be precious, though you will have only a handful left at best. I would like stories about this also. Depression might make one not want to be a burden, and stiff upper lip might tend to make one want to slip away.
 
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whileaway

Registered User
Dec 11, 2015
129
"WHSmith sells a kit for £14.99


And the government do it for free online
\


I'm not a betting man but I'll bet that if you write inconsistencies in the WHSmith documents you don't get a pop up in effect saying 'you can't do that'
I bought that kit last year for nine, not 15, but then some things might have changed.( WHSmiths.)
My!- Does the free online version come fool-proof as well?!
AgeUK is coming to our house in two days to help with/do/ the welfare portion of lasting prs of att. I will try to have the quantity and quality of attorneys figured out by then. I very am bad with paperwork, being disorganized & distractable, to a pathological degree.
 

whileaway

Registered User
Dec 11, 2015
129
Oh thank you for informing me! I will get a new-improved one- (or should I use the on-line version?)
 

whileaway

Registered User
Dec 11, 2015
129
Well, thank you, Lin, for telling me to use the on-line form. Since I havent completed the required number of posts, I can't reply to any letters using URLs, but this message goes out to Lin and Bob
 

nitram

Registered User
Apr 6, 2011
20,266
North Manchester
The documents for care and finance are separate which means that there are two sets of attorneys.

There can be multiple attorneys.

Multiple attorneys can act in three ways
  • Jointly
  • Jointly and severally
  • Jointly for some actions and jointly and severally for others.

Jointly
All attorneys must always act together.
Can be difficult to achieve in practise, apart from the logistics not all organisation have the facility for multiple signatures on documents.
If one attorney cannot act, deceased, bankrupt (finance only), lacks capacity, revokes the power, all attorneys cannot act and the power lapses.

Jointly and severally
All attorneys can act jointly or independently.

Jointly for some actions and jointly and severally for others.
The type of power for specified action is defined, it can be jointly and severally except for defined actions when it is jointly.

You can also appoint replacement attorneys to take over if the original ones cannot act. This is not away out of not all original joint attorneys being able to act.

My advice would be to keep it simple, everything joint and several.
If you start putting various restrictive clauses in you could end up with an unworkable situation or have inadvertently caused an unforeseen legal problem, the OPG my even reject the application, you should get legal advice.
 

whileaway

Registered User
Dec 11, 2015
129
I am not legally qualified, but I think that if you, your brother and your friends were set up as joint and several attorneys for finance, then whoever wanted could take on the active management while the other(s) just received periodic statements and accounts. You could list a solicitor as a replacement attorney in case you all fell out!

Ultimately, it's who your parents want to manage their affairs that really counts.
Well, my father who handled all the business and was very good at it, has had a creeping dementia, and my mother is worse at business than I am.( They have had 2 house insurance policies, identical coverage, different insurers, for years, for example.)
Your post implies that all the attorneys will receive detailed statements regarding finance and/or/welfare. What kind of statements? Bank statements? I haven't thought it through. The AgeUK lady will explain half of this anyway.
 

whileaway

Registered User
Dec 11, 2015
129
The documents for care and finance are separate which means that there are two sets of attorneys.

There can be multiple attorneys.

Multiple attorneys can act in three ways
  • Jointly
  • Jointly and severally
  • Jointly for some actions and jointly and severally for others.

Jointly
All attorneys must always act together.
Can be difficult to achieve in practise, apart from the logistics not all organisation have the facility for multiple signatures on documents.
If one attorney cannot act, deceased, bankrupt (finance only), lacks capacity, revokes the power, all attorneys cannot act and the power lapses.

Jointly and severally
All attorneys can act jointly or independently.

Jointly for some actions and jointly and severally for others.
The type of power for specified action is defined, it can be jointly and severally except for defined actions when it is jointly.

You can also appoint replacement attorneys to take over if the original ones cannot act. This is not away out of not all original joint attorneys being able to act.

My advice would be to keep it simple, everything joint and several.
If you start putting various restrictive clauses in you could end up with an unworkable situation or have inadvertently caused an unforeseen legal problem, the OPG my even reject the application, you should get legal advice.
Thank you. But then you say the jointly might be a spanner in the works. Oh I hate to get a solicitor, but maybe it is warranted.
 

Risa

Registered User
Apr 13, 2015
482
Essex
I know, but my mother doesn't like to face such things, and I want to have all of the possibilities to set before her. Perhaps I like chaos, as she says, but I wonder if there are an infinite number of permutations for the powers of the various attorneys- this one can make this particular decision on their own, while as this one needs that other one to comply r.e. this other decision. And this one can make all decisions on finance, but needs an accompanying one for care. Is there someone who had been through this that will give me stories as to how it breaks down? It's confusing because I am American, as are they, but they are residents, and I am just a visitor.
You don't have to have the same attorneys for the 2 LPA forms as they are stand alone documents. Being next of kin, I assume you and your brother would wish to be the Health & Welfare attorneys and the family friends be attorneys for the Property & Finance LPA? The forms are easy to complete on-line, there is plenty of guidance on the forms and there is also a telephone contact number in case you have a query. I would say they are much more fool-proof than completing a paper copy as depending on what sections you complete, the on-line form automatically completes corresponding sections for you so cuts down on the work involved :)

I would encourage you to complete the H&W LPA as in the UK, many doctors are unwilling to divulge patient information even to the next of kin without this being in place. With you being located in another country, this could be a major issue.
 

whileaway

Registered User
Dec 11, 2015
129
You don't have to have the same attorneys for the 2 LPA forms as they are stand alone documents. Being next of kin, I assume you and your brother would wish to be the Health & Welfare attorneys and the family friends be attorneys for the Property & Finance LPA? The forms are easy to complete on-line, there is plenty of guidance on the forms and there is also a telephone contact number in case you have a query. I would say they are much more fool-proof than completing a paper copy as depending on what sections you complete, the on-line form automatically completes corresponding sections for you so cuts down on the work involved :)

I would encourage you to complete the H&W LPA as in the UK, many doctors are unwilling to divulge patient information even to the next of kin without this being in place. With you being located in another country, this could be a major issue.
Thank you, dear. I am content. Everyone has been most helpful, and you have eased my mind at the last.
 

arielsmelody

Registered User
Jul 16, 2015
516
... Your post implies that all the attorneys will receive detailed statements regarding finance and/or/welfare. What kind of statements? Bank statements? I haven't thought it through. The AgeUK lady will explain half of this anyway.
The persons holding power of attorney won't automatically receive anything at all - it's pretty much the other way round, if you want to be able to operate eg a bank account on the other person's behalf, you have to take the documents to the bank and get them to register you as having power of attorney for that account (NB don't send the original documents off, you will probably need certified copies from a solicitor that can be sent away if the bank insists).
 

nitram

Registered User
Apr 6, 2011
20,266
North Manchester
"But then you say the jointly might be a spanner in the works."

It can certainly add complication.

If any attorney cannot act the power ceases to exist which means that if the donor has lost capacity a new LPA cannot be made and a COP deputy will have to be applied for, these are rarely granted for health and welfare.

The fact that documents have to be signed by all attorneys can cause problems especially if the documents have to be posted around various attorneys. Some financial institutions do not have the room for multiple signatures on forms that actually apply to a single person.

With health and welfare it may be difficult to contact all joint attorneys in an emergency situation.

The real question to ask is why did the donor select attorneys that they did not trust to work together acting severally.