Joint current accounts

nitram

Registered User
Apr 6, 2011
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Bury
"It is left as a joint account on the advice of the bank manager simply for expediency's sake although I have Deputyship"

CG does not have EPA,LPA, or COP and as I believe she is in England the bank should lock the account if they have reason to suspect incapacity.

I have already said that capital should be split between the new accounts.
 

Saffie

Registered User
Mar 26, 2011
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Near Southampton
This is what I fear happening, Saffie. So part of your own income is used to pay the nursing home, leaving you with a reduced income?
I was simply responding to CG's question to me Nitram.

CG does not have EPA,LPA, or COP and as I believe she is in England the bank should lock the account if they have reason to suspect incapacity.
I didn't either until I got the Deputyship and I doubt the manager would have left the account as joint had I not had the Deputyship. As I said, it just made things a little simpler.
 

nitram

Registered User
Apr 6, 2011
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Bury
Sorry Saffie

As far as I know CG only has two state pensions to worry about so getting rid of the joint account without having to obtain deputyship for her mother is the aim.
 

garnuft

Registered User
Sep 7, 2012
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In truth CG I don't think you could have access to a joint account simply by being the apointee of one of the account holders.
The bank could(should?) be advising you to set up a new, separate account, it could be in your name, it could be your own account, into which your Mum's State benefits are paid.

In view of the fact that I have just received £516 as my half share from a joint account with my estranged husband from an account I took my name off 13 years ago, as compensation for mis-selling Personal Income Proctection on a loan, he took out and re-paid on the dot.....

I would think a savvie bank is going to be very careful about how accounts are operated and I fully understand their reasoning, in fact they have been lax in their use of the rules for themselves and lax in their proper obligation to apply the rules as regards customers.

I don't think there should be descretionary decisions and rules waived.

Accounts should be frozen if legal obligations are not fully met, the bank could come to an informal lending agreement with customers to allow low-fee lending to be granted, perhaps even statutory limits where it is obligatory rather than credit-check or history linked, while problems are ironed out, fees for lending disregarded once disputes are clear and a low adminstration fee paid by the customer for the service, or the customer gets off their backside and sorts their finances out for themselves.

It might mean more upheaval but better things are set on a legal footing, as they should be, than open to interpretation and mis-use by any party concerned.

Single accounts with mandates to pay into a joint account are much better than a joint account alone, where everything, debits and credits are jointly liable but ability to operate the account could be ignored to the detriment of a vulnerable co-signee or suddenly ended by the legal requirements of a joint account holder.

I think all kids should be taught the in's and out's of banking and the basics of law with regards to money and there would not be the ability of the banks to run amok over naive customers nor would they be the naive claims about the freezing of accounts when a person lacks culpability or ability that causes so much pain when the inevitable comes to call. IMO.

Form BF57 is I think, a form about apointeeship to State benefits and pensions and applies to a joint bank account insomuch that it means that money is accepted to the account, to be shared by both parties as a credit, as are debits but as an appointee you are basically accepting receipt of the money, nothing more.
 

nitram

Registered User
Apr 6, 2011
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Bury
"In truth CG I don't think you could have access to a joint account simply by being the apointee of one of the account holders."


CG also has a third party signatory mandate on the joint account.
 

garnuft

Registered User
Sep 7, 2012
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Yes, that means permission to use the account with some or no provisions, depending on the mandate. No obligation to debits, credits or debts.
A joint account requires the permission of both parties to allow a third to operate the account but relevant power of attorney would grant that authority in the name of the person you have authority for.

Being third party does not make you part i.e legally responsible, of the financial 'goings on' only permission to use the account ergo free the bank from their responsibility to safeguard your money.
 

jenniferpa

Registered User
Jun 27, 2006
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Being third party does not make you part i.e legally responsible, of the financial 'goings on' only permission to use the account ergo free the bank from their responsibility to safeguard your money.

TBH - that's the point that gives me pause about the arrangement that CG has re the 3rd party mandate/joint account/appointeeship. When you're an appointee you are responsible for ensuring that the funds are used to benefit the individual, and while obviously CG's dad is not going to run off to Tahiti it does rather put CG in the invidious position of being responsible for the money without really having control over it.

I have to say, I don't think the bank really served you well CG. And I'm reasonably sure this is against the guidelines given by the DWP when it comes to being an appointee (although I must confess I haven't checked them recently).
 

nitram

Registered User
Apr 6, 2011
30,256
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Bury
garnuft

I agree with all that.
The third party mandate allows her the approach in post 19
She ends up with two sole accounts and a dormant joint account containing £1
It does all this without giving the bank the chance to lock the account
 

Fed Up

Registered User
Aug 4, 2012
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Is the point that you need to separate the accounts because both then can claim benefits as an individual. If so do it before you need too, I did this for the in laws, it was actually easy the H-------x understood and allowed the care home manager to witness my FIL's x as he had a stroke and could not write his name.
Be transparent and get as much paperwork done before you need too as it eases the burden. I'm a joint account holder with mum and pay her bills etc and the DWP send all corres to me.
 

garnuft

Registered User
Sep 7, 2012
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Yes you're right Nitram....sorry I read the posts too fast :eek:

Separate the accounts is the only way to go, a joint saving and expenditure account is how I would do it now if I was starting out again.

If your Dad goes to Tahiti CG, do you think he'd take us all too? pretty please. :)
 

CollegeGirl

Registered User
Jan 19, 2011
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North East England
I don't fully understand the direction this thread is heading.

However, my original question as to whether dad's income in the joint account can be taken to pay for nursing home fees still stands, although I am somewhat reassured on that point by the responses.

Thank you for all your input, much appreciated, and I understand about separate accounts, will pass that advice onto dad, thanks.
 
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nitram

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Apr 6, 2011
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Bury
jenniferpa
My understanding is that a BF57 account is a rather strange arrangement, it's the DWP giving the appointee authority to handle DWP funds in a special account. It's as if the account was in the name of the DWP

I believe that strictly the account should only contain DWP funds but that exceptions are commonly made for small private pensions to be included.

This is why I queried earlier if CG was an appointee on the joint account. As she apparently is I thought it was best left as fait accompli.

Fed Up
The problem is that one of the joint holders lacks capacity and as there is no EPA,LPA or COP if the bank finds out they are legally bound to lock the account and only open it again when instructed by the COP. They might take the easy way out and turn a blind eye but...
 

garnuft

Registered User
Sep 7, 2012
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Your Dad's income cannot be taken into account CG, only joint savings and assets.

An account into which state benefits are paid can be into any account, depending upon your relationship to the claimant. If the relationship is removed or obtuse in any way further information/investigation could/will be required.....this all depends upon the person pressing the button on the computer who is assessing the claim.

My understanding of appointeeship vis a vis state benefits is that has no responsibility about the use of funds, simply an acknowledgement of the receipt of those funds.
 

CollegeGirl

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Jan 19, 2011
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North East England
My understanding of appointeeship vis a vis state benefits is that has no responsibility about the use of funds, simply an acknowledgement of the receipt of those funds.

As appointee I have to ensure that the money is received by my mam and is used for her benefit. This was stressed to me by the Visiting Officer from the DWP who interviewed me and approved everything. No problem there.
 

garnuft

Registered User
Sep 7, 2012
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Och, no of course not CG. I hope you didn't think I was suggesting otherwise, I most definitely wasn't.

Just talking about money is all. :) x
 

Saffie

Registered User
Mar 26, 2011
22,513
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Near Southampton
However, my original question as to whether dad's income in the joint account can be taken to pay for nursing home fees still stands, although I am somewhat reassured on that point by the responses.

Simple answer CG. As I tried to say before, half what is in this account when it is separated will be considered as your mother's - so that half will be included as part of her assets.. So best thing is to arrange for a new account for either your mother or your father to be opened a.s.a.p. and transfer half of what is in this joint account into it. Then arrange payments and expenses according to whose account it is - separately. Then you will be on a level playing field and if and when the LA cme knocking, everything will be clearcut and none of your father's income will be going towards the home fees.
I do hope this helps.

Your Dad's income cannot be taken into account CG, only joint savings and assets.
Only half of these.

I kinow nothing about Appointeeship so can leave that discussion for the other!
 
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CollegeGirl

Registered User
Jan 19, 2011
9,525
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North East England
Thanks all. I've told dad of the possibility of the bank freezing the joint account in the future, and he was very grateful for the warning. He is going to set up an appointment with the advisor at the bank in order to sort things out.

He has so many things on his plate at the moment, it's a wonder his head doesn't explode. I hated to burden him with this as well, but forewarned is forearmed.

On a positive note, the weekly overnight respite is continuing to work well, mam seems very settled by all accounts.
 

CollegeGirl

Registered User
Jan 19, 2011
9,525
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North East England
As you have the BF57 you can just open a new account elsewhere and then tell the DWP to pay into it.

Can this be in my name (or jointly with my dad)? If it was in mam's sole name, no-one would be able to access it to use the money!

Will the DWP pay her pension and attendance allowance into an account that is not in her name? Does my being appointee allow for this?
 

nitram

Registered User
Apr 6, 2011
30,256
0
Bury
"Will the DWP pay her pension and attendance allowance into an account that is not in her name? Does my being appointee allow for this?"

The appointee account is in the appointee's name.

The appointee agrees to only use the funds for the benefit of the disabled person.

Don't know about joint appointee accounts, ask the DWP

EDIT

The BF56 form used to apply for appointee has no provision for joint account holders.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...26776/Appendix-01_An_example_of_form_BF56.pdf
 
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