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joint care with sister not working out

canary

Registered User
Feb 25, 2014
18,433
0
South coast
It really doesnt sound to me as though your mum is capable of understanding the POA any more.
If the original POA cannot be registered (for whatever reason) then I think you will have to go for deputyship. Yes, this is more faff and form-filling (and more expensive) but it may have the advantage in that (unlike POA) the deputy(s) have to fill in an annual financial report to the Office of Public Guardians detailing where literally every penny has gone...........
 

nitram

Registered User
Apr 6, 2011
25,087
0
North Manchester
@JamesMcyntyre

You bought the car and have not disposed of it in any way, it's still yours, has been since you bought it, and you have the receipt to prove ownership.

The V5 records the registered keeper, where any notice of intending prosecution goes for a traffic offence.

Their are thousands of registered keepers who don't own 'their' car, one group is people who lease cars which are owned by a finance company.

It's basically easy to change the registered keeper
A problem for you could be getting the reference number off the current V5
 

JamesMcyntyre

Registered User
Nov 20, 2021
14
0
If your sister won't agree to the joint PoA tell her you and the cousin will go ahead and set it up without her. She cannot insist she is the sole attorney or no PoA. I really think you need to take charge of the situation.

thanks I am visiting the cousin in question tomorrow, though her mum my aunt is terminally ill at the moment so will only discuss this if the topic is raised by her. She should be wondering what is happening with the PoA so wld hope my cousin brings it up. I agree its time to take charge of the situtation, at the moment this thread is providing me with a lot of the background information I need to be able to tackle this as well as clarifying some of my thoughts. Its all appreciated.
 

JamesMcyntyre

Registered User
Nov 20, 2021
14
0
It really doesnt sound to me as though your mum is capable of understanding the POA any more.
If the original POA cannot be registered (for whatever reason) then I think you will have to go for deputyship. Yes, this is more faff and form-filling (and more expensive) but it may have the advantage in that (unlike POA) the deputy(s) have to fill in an annual financial report to the Office of Public Guardians detailing where literally every penny has gone...........
just returning to this thread - thanks for this info
 

JamesMcyntyre

Registered User
Nov 20, 2021
14
0
I agree
thanks this is the only route option if POA doesn't go through? I understood there are two types of Power of Attorney, the one where the individual signs and accepts you as their Attorney. The second kind where you go to court to get the power of attonrey - is this the same thing as deputy ship? & there are no other options?
 

Wildflowerlady

Registered User
Sep 30, 2019
939
0
thanks this is the only route option if POA doesn't go through? I understood there are two types of Power of Attorney, the one where the individual signs and accepts you as their Attorney. The second kind where you go to court to get the power of attonrey - is this the same thing as deputy ship? & there are no other options?
Yes I believe that is correct you would be acting on your mother's behalf as her deputy but unlike being an attorney on a LPA they will require updates on her finances to be sent to them.
 

nitram

Registered User
Apr 6, 2011
25,087
0
North Manchester
The Court of Protection automatically has the power to act on behalf of anybody who looses capacity.

With an attorney the court gives the power to the attorney(s) chosen by the donor whilst they had capacity.

With a deputy the court retains the power and authorises a deputy, or deputies, to act on it's behalf, hence the supervision of a deputy's actions.

A deputy can be a person who applies or one chosen from a panel if a suitable person does not apply, local authorities commonly make applications.
 

thistlejak

Registered User
Jun 6, 2020
238
0
@JamesMcyntyre - POA is as you describe . There are two kinds - finance and health.
The other situation you describe is Court of Protection Deputyship - this is applied for after the person who would be the donor (of a POA) has lost capacity. You then apply to act on their behalf. The update on finances mentioned is an annual report that logs every penny that goes into and out of all their accounts.
We have just completed the second year report for MIL - it is not difficult - we fill it in each month when the bank statements arrive.
 

MartinWL

Registered User
Jun 12, 2020
2,029
0
65
London
I am confused here. Early in the thread @JamesMcyntyre you said you had paid the fees, in relation to the power of attorney. You only pay when you register it. Has a POA actually been registered with the Office of the Public Guardian? I will assume that it has not been registered.

If as @canary points out, your mother no longer has capacity to sign a new POA, and you cannot get agreement on completion of the draft POA if it hasn't been registered, then deputyship is the way to go.

Now, if the POA has not been registered your sister can only access your mother's money with her permission. She may have that permission. Or she may have stolen money. We don't know and retrospective proof as to who agreed to what is very unlikely to be available.

So, for the future you could apply for deputyship with you as the only deputy. You could make the case in your application that your mother was at risk of depriving herself of funds by giving money away to your sister over and above reasonable expenses. If granted, this would put you in full control. You would be able to change passwords, cancel or replace cards, have all correspondence sent to you. You would have to account for all spending but you could pay your sister a shopping allowance for domestic expenses and food etc. Anything your sister wanted to use your mum's funds for would have to be for your mum's benefit and authorised by you.

This would be the best thing for your mother but will obviously be a source of strife and your sister may object to you getting deputyship. But she may not, as she may not want her past misuse of mum's funds to be put under a spotlight. You could make the point that bygones will be bygones and that provided she doesn't try to prevent you from becoming deputy, issues such as using a car without the owner's permission, misuse of mother's funds, etc. will never ever be spoken of again.

In the circumstances I would suggest having a solicitor on board to advise or do the application.
 

JamesMcyntyre

Registered User
Nov 20, 2021
14
0
I am confused here. Early in the thread @JamesMcyntyre you said you had paid the fees, in relation to the power of attorney. You only pay when you register it. Has a POA actually been registered with the Office of the Public Guardian? I will assume that it has not been registered.

If as @canary points out, your mother no longer has capacity to sign a new POA, and you cannot get agreement on completion of the draft POA if it hasn't been registered, then deputyship is the way to go.

Now, if the POA has not been registered your sister can only access your mother's money with her permission. She may have that permission. Or she may have stolen money. We don't know and retrospective proof as to who agreed to what is very unlikely to be available.

So, for the future you could apply for deputyship with you as the only deputy. You could make the case in your application that your mother was at risk of depriving herself of funds by giving money away to your sister over and above reasonable expenses. If granted, this would put you in full control. You would be able to change passwords, cancel or replace cards, have all correspondence sent to you. You would have to account for all spending but you could pay your sister a shopping allowance for domestic expenses and food etc. Anything your sister wanted to use your mum's funds for would have to be for your mum's benefit and authorised by you.

This would be the best thing for your mother but will obviously be a source of strife and your sister may object to you getting deputyship. But she may not, as she may not want her past misuse of mum's funds to be put under a spotlight. You could make the point that bygones will be bygones and that provided she doesn't try to prevent you from becoming deputy, issues such as using a car without the owner's permission, misuse of mother's funds, etc. will never ever be spoken of again.

In the circumstances I would suggest having a solicitor on board to advise or do the application.
Hi thanks, I read once need to digest a bit more. Reagarding the fees I mentioned, these were the fees for the Doctor to sign the POA to agree that mum was in a fit state at the time to sign the POA. Not the POA registration fees theself. The POA has not been submitted.
 

JamesMcyntyre

Registered User
Nov 20, 2021
14
0
So I arranged a meeting in the pub this evening with my sister to address these points from the chat. Chose a neutral venue so a heated discussion wldnt turn into a blazing argument.

Essentially my sister views the house as her house eventhough she owns only 10% of it my mother the remaining 90%. This causes a lot of the problems.

It is clear she doesn;t remember most of the things she has said or how she has behaved in the past.

I explained we are brother and sister and what she would consider acceptable should be vice versa. aka 50:50

She doesn't think I should have anything to do with the finances & claimed that I was & I quote "illegaly data mining" not entirely sure what that is but I can ensure you I have never done anything illegal nor intend to & because of my illegal data mining activities I couldn't be trusted.

Naturally I raised the point that trust would be gained by having open finances.

She thinks that she can find a live in house keeper for 1,000GBP a month. It is a 2 bedroom house & with my mum, my sister & a housekeeper that's 3 bedrooms needed. Its a tiny house. My sister thinks she can move into the lounge so the housekeeper can have a bedroom - but then all people have no lounge. I keep insisting without some sort of extension it wouldn't be possible.

I mean who would live in a small 2 bed house with a woman with dementia & work as a housekeeper for 1,000GBP per month? I heard there is some scheme but this sounds totally unrealistic - she claims it is normal. My mum has the aggressive form of dementia - can't see her settling with anyone.

Clearly we are dealing with unrealistic expectations and ideas - the question is are we also dealing with mental health issues with my sister. Bear in mind my mum is 70 has late stage dementia & has had signs of it for 20 years so since early 50's. My sister is now 40.
 

MartinWL

Registered User
Jun 12, 2020
2,029
0
65
London
She doesn't think I should have anything to do with the finances & claimed that I was & I quote "illegaly data mining" not entirely sure what that is but I can ensure you I have never done anything illegal nor intend to & because of my illegal data mining activities I couldn't be trusted.
I think this odd phrase ( in the context) means she thinks you are trying to get your hands on information to which you are not entitled by an illegal method. Probably just a meaningless grumble.
 

MartinWL

Registered User
Jun 12, 2020
2,029
0
65
London
Morning @JamesMcyntyre I think you have handled this well, it was good to try jaw-jaw before resorting to war.

This isn't the first thread about a family member trying to conceal the finances from other family members and that behaviour is always grounds for suspicion although not proof of wrongdoing.

Unless I have missed something there is still no POA registered with the Office of the Public Guardian and your mum cannot honestly be said to have capacity to make a new one. The one signed but not registered has three attorneys named. Given the state of relations if this were registered it would lead to endless battles between attornies about decisions so it may be best that the document be shredded if you get the chance.

I suggest that the way to go now is clearly deputyship. A GP has already been involved who doesn't think your mum has capacity to make a new POA so that same GP might sign the deputyship application. You will have to be prepared to spend a fair bit of time on management of your mother's financial and property affairs. If her gutters get blocked, it will be your problem.

You say your sister owns 10% of the house and your mother 90%. Is that documented? Is that information recorded at the Land Registry? I would be inclined to apply to the Land Registry for as much information as possible and also sign up for their service that will alert you to any activity related to the property. And get it recorded if not, with help from a solicitor or surveyor if needed.


Your sister could potentially try to sell or mortgage the property or get equity release by getting your mother to sign things, before you get deputyship. Supposing your mother has bequeathed the house to you and sister equally, equity release could be used to turn a good part of that future inheritance into cash now, to be used in possibly a dubious way so that when she dies there's not much to inherit.

As deputy for your mother you will be able to control all her finances and decide whether your sister should be required to pay rent to your mother for her accommodation, or to barter care for rent, or to move out in favour of a live in carer. If your sister is caring for your mother well she will deserve to be treated generously and you might repair relations by consulting her and showing her the accounts. But that's all food for future thought!
 

Scarlet Lady

Registered User
Apr 6, 2021
213
0
@JamesMcyntyre , I think it really does seem that your sister has mental health issues, not necessarily dementia, however. Her views and opinions are not rational, and neither are the decisions she wishes to make. The fact that she apparently cannot remember things she has said and done fairly recently is also of concern, although I appreciate that she may be deliberately employing ‘selective amnesia’ to suit her purposes. I’m not sure of the best way to tackle this, but I agree with @MartinWL that you should consult a solicitor as soon as possible.
 

Jaded'n'faded

Registered User
Jan 23, 2019
3,190
0
High Peak
Your sister is denying all her dubious behaviour yet accusing you of doing something illegal. OK, let's stop there for a second. YOU know you have done nothing. Trying to find out what is going on is not illegal data mining! (Whatever that means.) The only info you've got would be available to anyone so hardly illegal. So that's simply not true.

She talks about trust yet won't do anything that would enable you to trust her. You need to look after your mum's finances legally. As the exisiting PA is unregistered, she really shouldn't be using your mum's money AT ALL.

You've tried to be nice, you really have, but she's not prepared to even meet you halfway (which is all you are asking) so I think you have to take matters into your own hands and apply for deputyship. You can tell her you're going to do it, or use it as a threat if you wish, if she refuses to share financial details and get everything (the house, etc) on a legal footing. If you do, make sure you give her a deadline - 48 hours and no longer, because this has gone on long enough. If you cannot force her to change you have no choice but to go ahead with the deputy application.

Yes, it's going to cause upset but you can't continue under your sister's 'rules'.

Oh - and good luck to her getting a live in housekeeper for £250 per week. Not a chance...
 

nitram

Registered User
Apr 6, 2011
25,087
0
North Manchester
I also think you should determine the house ownership.

You can do this by going to
https://www.gov.uk/get-information-about-property-and-land/search-the-register .
and paying £3 to download a copy of the Title Register.

If only one of them is listed that one is sole owner.

If both your mum's and sister's names are listed as owners they are joint owners.

In which case if Section B contains
RESTRICTION: No Disposition By A Sole Proprietor Or The Registered Estate (Except A Trust Corporation) Under Which Capital Money Arises Is To Be Registered Unless Authorized By An Order Of The Court’.
They own as tenants in common and there should be a deed of trust specifying the shares.

If this restriction is not recorded they own as joint tenants meaning they both own the whole of the property and have equal rights to the property.
In this case if you mum predeceases your sister the house will pass to your sister and vice versa regardless of any will.