Joint bank accout and Power of attorney.

[samusko]

I have been given power of attorney Registered in Scotland for Mrs A. She has a Joint bank account with her husband who has dementia and is in a care home. The bank are refusing my access to the account without a power of attorney for Mr A, and no access to funds at the bank unless I take 90 yr old Mrs A there in her wheelchair each time she needs cash for living expenses care home fees etc
Help please

Sam

 

[ITBookworm]

Hi samusko and welcome to Talking Point.

Can you confirm whether the bank account is in Scotland or England? As far as I know the POA should apply ok in either country but I believe the banking rules are slightly different between the two.

In simple terms the POA should allow you to act as though you actually are Mrs A so if Mrs A can access the account I would have thought that you should be able to as her attorney. If there are any accounts only in the name of Mr A then neither you nor Mrs A will have access but that doesn't help for the joint account

Would it be feasible to take Mrs A to the bank (for one time only!!!!) to remove all/most of the money in the account and deposit it into an account only in her name and then get the bank to give you access to that account?

The possible problem with that approach depends on whether the local authority is now, or likely to be in the future, providing funding for Mr A's care. Removing money from an account where technically he owns 50% of it and putting it into a single name other than his could be classed as deprivation of assets.

Who of why do banks make life so difficult

Good luck with getting something sorted out!

 

[nitram]

Assume bank is in Scotland.

Don't know about Scotland but if England or Wales

"...If one joint account holder loses capacity to operate their
account and a registered enduring or lasting power of
attorney is in place, then the bank will allow the attorney
and the account holder (with capacity) to operate the
account independently of each other, unless the account
holder (with capacity) objects. In such cases the bank will
then usually only allow the account to continue to operate
on a ‘both-to-sign’ basis..."


http://www.bba.org.uk/download/8764

Strange that the British Banking Association does not cover Scotland.

There's alway a chance that if your present them with a copy they may think they are British and capitulate.

Escalate to a higher level
http://www.ceoemail.com/
or use feet and walk

 

[jenniferpa]

Well the banking laws are different in Scotland, and it's difficult to work out what is going on here. Unlike England and Wales a joint account can still continue to be operated in Scotland if one of the account holders has lost capacity. However, that's not exactly what is happening here I gather - there are two account holders one of who who has clearly lost capacity (Mr A) and the other who whether she still has capacity or not has an attorney acting for her. So from the bank's POV they are possibly dealing with 2 account holders both of whom have lost capacity and there is no one looking out for Mr A. I have to say - if Mr A has lost capacity - why isn't there a guardianship (I think that's what they call it) in place for him?

I suppose what I'm saying is that I can understand why the bank is taking this position.

One thing you could do - open a sole account for Mrs A and get her pensions etc paid into that, and if she still has capacity she could write a check to remove her portion of any savings in the first bank to the second (although that latter might be a little dodgy).

 

[samusko]

Nitram- I have read your quote and I think that is where someone has a POA for the person who has lost capacity. In my case I have POA for the person who still has capacity but not the other joint account holder.

Jenniferpa - I was thinking along what you suggest, opening a sole account for Mrs A. To complicate matters she is unable to sign due to severe arthritis.

ITBookworm -
I was thinking of keeping social work informed of transactions, to avoid deprivation of assets problems.
Still have some problems paying care home fees from the joint account.

And I haven't even begun to think about problems for internet banking

 

[Saffie]

Still have some problems paying care home fees from the joint account.

If you are only the attourney for Mrs A, I presume there somebody else who has the LPA for Mr A?
If so, shouldn't he or she be paying the care home fees
If not, then surely you don't have the power to do this - do you?
I'm very connfused now. Are things really that different in Scotland?

 

[ITBookworm]

"Technically" Mrs A should not be paying the care home fees for Mr A. Mr A should be paying those himself (through a guardian or attorney of his own) from his own funds and/or income. Granted it will be his funds from the joint account being used at the moment but it isn't strictly by the rule book.

If there is no guardianship or POA in place for Mr A then, as Jennifer says, that needs resolved.

I would imagine if Mr and Mrs A have always just treated everything as "ours" with joint responsibility (and at 90 I wouldn't really expect anything else) then all this seems a bit odd and unnecessary but the laws are there for protection of both of them.

 

[Saffie]

I would imagine if Mr and Mrs A have always just treated everything as "ours" with joint responsibility (and at 90 I wouldn't really expect anything else) then all this seems a bit odd and unnecessary but the laws are there for protection of both of them

It's not really odd nor unnecessary. My husband and I were in this position when he was transferred to a nursing home from hospital. We have always had a joint bank account and I didn't have LPA as he wasn't bad mentally when he was admitted to hospital for an emergency operation so I had to aquire Deputyship.
When we attended a Memories Matters course, we were told that if one party of a joint account is deemed by the bank to have lost capacity, then they are quite likely to freeze the account to protect that person. Unless of course, the person has an LPA in place.
I would think that the account should be divided so as to protect both parties but that would be up to both attourneys, supposing there are two.

 

[ITBookworm]

I wouldn't think it odd or unnecessary Saffie and I know you have gone through something similar. I was just thinking that, at 90 odd years old, Mr and Mrs A are of a generation that maybe wouldn't expect the "rules" to be as they are. I suspect that might be why no mention has been made of a POA for Mr A - they could well not have realised that they needed one thinking that Mrs A could handle things through her attorney as everything was 'joint'.

 

[samusko]

I suspect that might be why no mention has been made of a POA for Mr A - they could well not have realised that they needed one thinking that Mrs A could handle things through her attorney as everything was 'joint'.

Everything was fine until Mr A had a stroke and was admitted to hospital. Only then did Mrs A get me appointed as her attorney. Mr A has no attorney and nobody has yet suggested he needs one. I don't think the freezing of joint account when one person loses capacity applies in Scotland but I may be wrong.

 

[jenniferpa]

Everything was fine until Mr A had a stroke and was admitted to hospital. Only then did Mrs A get me appointed as her attorney. Mr A has no attorney and nobody has yet suggested he needs one. I don't think the freezing of joint account when one person loses capacity applies in Scotland but I may be wrong.

No you're correct - that's one way that banking law differs in Scotland from England and Wales. There are probably others, but this is the issue that has come up in the past. Having said that, though, having a guardian appointed for Mr A would seem a prudent thing to do - it's not just about bank accounts but a whole load of other issues (including, in Scotland, welfare). Without such a guardian there is no one with the exception of Mrs A to speak for her husband, and even Mrs A might have problems with certain things. And even though you may have a POA for Mrs A, that gives you no standing to deal with Mr A's affairs.

 

[samusko]

Think I will phone solicitor in the morning, and already having a meeting with DWP at Mrs A's house.
It is extra annoying because I am personally funding Mrs A's day to day expenses.
The help I have found here in a few hours has been exceptional, thanks to everyone.
Sam

 

[ITBookworm]

If you already have a meeting with DWP arranged can you speak to them about being made an appointee for MR A's state pension and any benefits due HIM (obviously with Mrs A's consent)? An appointee is a bit like an attorney but doesn't need quite so much paperwork with DWP. A POA (or guardianship) supersedes an appointee so you technically don't need that for Mrs A since your existing POA gives you greater powers.

They normally prefer that any funds paid to the appointee are put into a separate account anyway so that would give the family access to a bit more funds until the whole bank account thing is sorted out

Good luck.

 

[Saffie]

I suspect that might be why no mention has been made of a POA for Mr A - they could well not have realised that they needed one thinking that Mrs A could handle things through her attorney as everything was 'joint'.

Yes, I absolutely agree it is a minefield when one is first faced with all this. I was shocked when I heard about the possible freezing of the account as I have very little in the way of a pension and we really lived on my husband's money which was the bulk of the cash in the joint current account. It was a solicitor who told us, so there was an agenda there as she was talking about LPA, for which, incidentally, she charged £750 for each part, but of course she was correct. We hesitated and then suddenly, it was too late for LPA!

I hope you get this sorted out samusko. If only the state pension is involved, you can of course seek an appointeeship for Mr A but if there is a private pension or other more involved financial affairs, then I believe an appointeeship won't be sufficient but of course, this again might be different in Scotland. I'm also not sure if you can do this without Mr A's agreement so I think you are right to seek help from a solicitor. Good luck, i hope it all works out. You shouldn't be out of pocket doing this.

 

[FifiMo]

Samusko,

Have a look at the bank statements and work out if you can circumvent the bank. If income is solely from DWP then get appointees hip granted for one or both of them. The way this works is that you would create an account in your name for each of them...not joint. The DWP then transfers the pension to that account and it is managed from there.

Check if there are any actual savings in there...work out what half is then get mrs a to write a cheque to transfer her half to a new account in her name only. That would then let the balance lie in the joint account which will become Mr As savings account for all intent and purpose.

This approach would be totally in line with how the LA will look at things when they do a financial assessment for Mr As care home fees.

If there is a considerable amount of money involved it might be useful if you apply for Guardianship for Mr A, on the basis that your LPA already has you managing half of it anyway! Cost of applying for Guardianship is a charge to Mr A and not to you!

Finally, I would speak to the HQ of the bank rather than the local branch who very often don't know if it is New York or New Year! You might get a more appropriate response at HQ. I would point out to HQ that there is no way you are transporting Mrs A to the bank each time and then for the bank to limit and control her money too by deciding what is reasonable living expenses. I would ask them tho note from the account that there have been no withdrawals due to this nonsense and you have an old lady who is starving herself as she has no money...do not let them know that you are funding her!!! Lay it on thick!

Hope this helps,

Fiona

 

[samusko]

Success at last !!!!

I hope I can revive this thread to report success after over a year. I was getting nowhere with the bank and complained to the financial ombudsman who phoned me today with his decision. Seems like the bank will grant me access to the joint account if a doctor writes to say Mr K is not able to operate it. The ombudsman said this was not just in my individual case but would apply to everybody. If people are interested I will post the ombudsman's decision in full when it arrives. I also get a stingy £100 compensation.

 

[sergent]

any further information on ombudsman's decision?

I hope I can revive this thread to report success after over a year. I was getting nowhere with the bank and complained to the financial ombudsman who phoned me today with his decision. Seems like the bank will grant me access to the joint account if a doctor writes to say Mr K is not able to operate it. The ombudsman said this was not just in my individual case but would apply to everybody. If people are interested I will post the ombudsman's decision in full when it arrives. I also get a stingy £100 compensation.

Hello, I stumbled across this conversation and it seems to be the only information on the internet close to my situation; power of attorney for father but no PoA in place for my mother as her dementia had already deteriorated. A bank says I cannot get access to a joint account on behalf of my father because it also requires my mothers signature in order to complete the process, which surprised me. Any further information on how you progressed with the ombudsman and how to go about it would be appreciated.

 

[whileaway]

I might have the same situation

Hello, I stumbled across this conversation and it seems to be the only information on the internet close to my situation; power of attorney for father but no PoA in place for my mother as her dementia had already deteriorated. A bank says I cannot get access to a joint account on behalf of my father because it also requires my mothers signature in order to complete the process, which surprised me. Any further information on how you progressed with the ombudsman and how to go about it would be appreciated.

I have dithered for 2 years in completing a LPOA and looked for guidance on the whole matter 2 months ago on this site. I was told to begin a new string, and Did, and got good advice and guidance. (I needed to be 'talked down' initially, being sort of distraught.) I am close to starting the set of signatures, but my father's condition has worsened. Let us track this question to its answering solution Now.

 

[whileaway]

We want an end to the story!

I hope I can revive this thread to report success after over a year. I was getting nowhere with the bank and complained to the financial ombudsman who phoned me today with his decision. Seems like the bank will grant me access to the joint account if a doctor writes to say Mr K is not able to operate it. The ombudsman said this was not just in my individual case but would apply to everybody. If people are interested I will post the ombudsman's decision in full when it arrives. I also get a stingy £100 compensation.

And what was the ruling? I would be very interested.

 

[Aisling]

And what was the ruling? I would be very interested.

I never thought of this. I have enduring power of Attorney for OH. We have joint current account and joint savings account. I always do OH banking business. both of us could withdraw money, transfer funds,or either of us could sign a cheque, ie one signature. I just continued doing the same.

I live in Ireland. Help!!

Aisling