Joint bank account with sufferer...

watcherman

Registered User
Oct 2, 2011
3
0
Can anyone advise what is best to do in this situation please. My father is in a care home under assessment for his dementia. He is well beyond having the mental capacity to deal with his finances, and I doubt will ever leave the care home. He has vascular dementia, which is very advanced.

My mother has a joint bank account with him, and their state and private pensions go into it.

My mother has recently been told that the joint bank account could be frozen, and is obviously fretting. Is there any likelihood of this happening?

As she spent years caring for my father, and the condition of their property declined due to lack of attention and a flood in the kitchen, she is now having some work done, but nothing outrageous, she is concerned that this could be seen as spending "his money" and cause her account to be frozen.

The state and private pensions they receive are in each of their names, but the split is not 50/50, dad's part is bigger than mums.

There is no power of attorney in place as they were advised against it by solicitor when they visited whilst dad still had the mental capacity to actually complete one!

TIA
 

Nebiroth

Registered User
Aug 20, 2006
3,510
0
First, it is more likely that the bank would remove your dad from the account rather than freezing it entirely, as it is a joint one held with your mum. In essence, this just means that your dad would no longer be able to access it. It is correct that banks can - and do - freeze the accounts when they believe that the holder no longer has the capacity to manage their affairs.

This is to protect the holder and the bank, which could ultimately end up liable should the holder, for example, run up large overdrafts and become bankrupt or pass away with their estate being unable to settle the debt.

Your mum should arrange to meet with the bank, at managerial level. It is much better to reach mutual agreement than for the bank to remain in the dark until it ends up taking pre-emptive action. It is almost certain that a suitable arrangement can be made.

I am extremely surprised, and shocked, to hear that anyone would be advised against making a power of attorney whilst they have the capacity to do so. It is one of the best things anyone can do. They are usually set up so that they can only come into force (be registered) when the person making them (called the donor) loses mental capacity. The donor can nominate whoever they wish to be the attorney (the person who gains authority to manage the donor's affairs) and obviously this is someone they trust implicitly. In this case your mum would be the obvious candidate. The donor may confer powers to make decisions on either financial or health matters, or both, although the latter are more limited in scope whereas the former cover almost anything (unless the donor specifically excludes some powers)

If there is no power of attorney, and the donor has lost capacity, they cannot then create one. Instead, the potential attorney has to make application for deputyship through the Office of the Public Guardian. A deputy has authority to manage someone's affairs although this is usually confined to financial matters. This process is more complex, time consuming and costly as the OPG must rigorously check that the donor has lost capacity, that tghe deputy is a suitable person, etc.

In the meantime, it is possible for someone to apply to become an appointee. This means they can apply to the Department of Work and Pensions (DWP) to manage someone's state benefits - but only those. For example, state pension. As an appointee your mum could receive your dad's state pension and use it to pay bills, etc. Becoming an appointee is relatively simple: the DWP will investigate to satisfy themselves that the person actually has lost capacity and, of course, that the appointee is a suitable person. It usually involves nothing more than an informal interview with said parties and, as far as I am aware, there is no fee.

If your dad goes into care this complicates matters. Much depends on whether he will be self-funding or not - this depends on the outcome of the financial assessment.

As part of this, his assets would be calculated as including 50% of anything he has in joint names with anyone else. The home would, however, be excluded as his spouse (mum) lives it it and would be so protected so long as she lives there. If he is self-funding then his income would be included, although 50% of his occupational (ie, non-state) pension must be reserved for his spouse.

If your dad goes into permanent care, then your mum would be regarded as effectively single in regard to state benefits. This would mean she might, for example, become elligible for Pension Credit, depending on her income. It is often the case, for the older generation, that women are dependent on their husband's income having little of their own since they have little to no occupational pension and have not paid National Insurance. However, as I said, if their husband goes into care they are assessed as single for benefits purposes and thus may become elligible for means-tested payments that they could not receive as a married person.

Lastly, it is reasonable for your mum to use the money in the joint account for upkeep of the home, for example, having repairs done. The usual test that is applied is that it is "normal expenditure" (as opposed to, say, suddenly going on luxury holidays) and that would have taken place if your dad had been well and living at home.

It is very unlikely to be regarded as a Deprivation of Assets (this means, spending or giving away money in order to evade being liable for care fees)

However, it might be wise to seek advice from the local authority or social services - in writing if possible.

The bank itself is unlikely to freeze the account for this reason, since as far as they are concerned, money in a joint account is entirely owned and at the disposal of both joint holders regardless of who actually paid it in. Likewise, each account holder is held responsible for any debts that are run up using the account regardless of which holder ran them up.

This is why, of course, banks always tell customers to use caution when setting up joint accounts.
 
Last edited:

watcherman

Registered User
Oct 2, 2011
3
0
Nebiroth...many thanks for such a long and detailed post, it is greatly appreciated in these worrying times.
 

Padraig

Registered User
Dec 10, 2009
1,037
0
Hereford
Standard recommodation

I'm not in the habit of giving advice and only write of my personal experiences.
On this subject I make an exception. It is my belief that as soon as one is diagnosed, with AD everyone involved in the support chain should advise the carer to seek power of attorney. It will save a lot of heart ache later on.
In our case I had a Psychologist sign a document (for a sum of money) to state that my wife was capable of making the decision to grant me power of attorney of her affairs. That document I presented to her bank to have all funds transferred to our joint account. Then presented the document to our separate bank and had all funds entered in my name.
I've always believed in financial independence of a partner/wife and ensured she had her own money by topping up her account. It was a very painful event to end that independence.
By the way I've not posted for some time as I felt too ill. Am feeling a bit better today.
 

jenniferpa

Registered User
Jun 27, 2006
39,442
0
I think Nebiroth has covered everything in his post, but I do disagree with him about the account being frozen. I'm not saying it is likely, because I don't think it is. However (and this is assuming you are not in Scotland where the rules are different) a bank account that is held jointly does require that both parties have capacity and according to the BBA:

If the other joint-account holder becomes mentally incapable, the bank or building society must get an order from the Court of Protection (in England and Wales), which protects the rights of mentally incapacitated people, before they can let you use the account.

As I say, I don't think it's likely to happen particularly if you don't bring the situation to the banks attention, but I understand why she was warned that it could. Because of this, I think it would be very unwise to approach the bank in this way as I can't help thinking they would have to enforce their stated rules (banks in my experience do not have much truck with the idea of "flexibility").

At least, I wouldn't do it until I had set up another sole account and made arrangements to be appointee with the pensions service and started paying both pensions into this new account. That at least would give your mother something to live on in the event that the Bank insisted that that she had to go to the COP. She wouldn't be able to redirect your father's private pension but state and any private pension plus allowances like attendance can be redirected. If you are an appointee, the pension service actually prefers you to have a bank account in your own name (rather than jointly).

I am also appalled that a solicitor advised that an LPA was a bad idea - I would think that came under the category of malpractice to be honest.
 

sue38

Registered User
Mar 6, 2007
10,849
0
55
Wigan, Lancs
Just to add I find it very strange that a solicitor would advise against a Power of Attorney. Everyone, whether or not they have been diagnosed with dementia, should consider an LPA.

I'm 43, and did one 5 years ago. I could have a stroke or have a serious car accident tomorrow. I view them as as sort of insurance policy - you hope it will never happen, but if it does you know you have it covered.
 

watcherman

Registered User
Oct 2, 2011
3
0
Thanks again everyone, what a great support network you have here...I am planning to meet with the solicitor in the next few days to question why he suggested not having a LPA...
 

longacre

Registered User
Feb 17, 2008
117
0
London
Just to say I agree with Jennifer not to go to the bank at the moment. As the account is in joint names there should be no reason for them to freeze it as your mother is still using it and able to do so. My stepfather died very unexpectedly 18 months ago (although he knew he was ill but kept it from all of us). I was the executor for his will and he took me through all their financial affairs about six months before he died. After he died I realised he had made all the accounts into joint accounts very soon before his death so that nothing got frozen - which made things so much simpler to deal with, although a shock to realise he had done this and therefore to also realise he knew he was dying...

Power of attorney is essential for you though now and unfortunately it wont be possible as your father doesnt have mental capacity, so you will have to go through court of protection to get it. It is all doable, but just takes a bit longer which is a bore for you. Who knows why your solicitor advised against it. A big mistake! I wonder if it is even worth another session with him/her to find out as it is sadly too late to change what has happened? I had to get one for both my mother and father and did this just as soon as I realised there was a problem with them both and had a doctor in attendance in both cases.

The only other thing is the attendance allowance. Have you got this for him? The forms are all on DWP site and although a bit more paperwork etc it is worth having. Again I did this for both mother and father, having been tipped off about it by someone else as it doesnt seem to be highlighted much. Good luck.
 

petromany

Registered User
Sep 16, 2010
128
0
West Sussex
Petromany

Hi, sorry to hear about your problems, I was inrterested to read your replies, but still do not understand the position with a joint current account, which both our state and private pension alongwith the AA allowance is paid into. I hold a poa for my husband and the Bank has made copies and taken note of this, but what does one do when the patient has to go into care ? still a little bewildered by this, can I end up with insufficient funds to enable me to stay in my home and pay all the bills etc,, Appreciate your views on this. Take care.
 

TextintheCity

Registered User
Feb 20, 2011
60
0
London
In addition to the excellent detailed advice from posters here I would suggest that your mother opens her own bank account and gets her pension/s paid into it which may help alleviate some of her anxieties. It could be done with the same bank as the joint account as they already hold her information and she will be familiar with the bank.
 

Unite

Registered User
Jan 11, 2011
7
0
Incorrect and unfortunate advice.

I am so sorry that you have had this problem with a Solicitor - for what reason I just can't imagine. My mum has AD and vascular dementia. I am a legal secretary/paralegal and deal with the preparation of Powers of Attorney all the time. I prepared the POA for my mum while she still had capacity and had the full support of my firm for that. It has just made dealing with things so much easier.

I just cannot imagine what was going through that Solicitor's head when he/she did not recommend a Continung (Scottish term) and Welfare Power of Attorney while your dad had capacity. We are the complete opposite, we strongly encourage clients from all departments in the firm to consider POA's and the benefits they bring. The thing is, people make a POA, have it registered and sitting in storage in the hope that it is never needed but, if it is, it's there to make life easier not only for the Adult but also for the family. I brought mum's into force last year and I have been thankful that I had the foresight to do so.

I am sorry that you may have to go down the Guardianship (Scottish term) route now because of this. Please do speak to the Solicitor and ask him/her just what they were thinking and what their reason for this was. Once you have done this, can I strongly recommend that if you are going down the Guardianship route that you go somewhere else, preferably somewhere recommended by the Law Society as being specialists in the subject. In Scotland, one of my work colleagues is recognised as being the top in this field. Please do find yourself the equivalent in England.

I can only offer you my love, support and prayers at what is a difficult time for your mum and yourself.

Blessings.
 

LadyA

Registered User
Oct 19, 2009
13,730
0
Ireland
It must be about two or three years since my husband's GP asked me if there was any hope of getting him to give me POA - but with his paranoia and his complete denial that there was anything wrong with him, there was no way it could be even considered. Now, it is too late, he wouldn't have the capacity. However, 6 or so years ago when I first noticed the early signs of changes in his behaviour, I did make sure he made a proper Will. We already had a joint account because the law here is that his State pension must be paid into a joint account or an account in his name although I've always been responsible for all our financial affairs, paying bills etc. What I did was set up an account in my own name and his pension goes into the joint account on a Friday and is transerred into my account on a Monday. All our bills are paid by DD from my account. My husband doesn't actually have access to the joint account - and at this point, he would no longer know how to go about accessing it. He gets an allowance - sort of spending money - each week in cash. It was the only way I could manage for years, as he would just spend everything on whatever took his eye, and not pay the bills! And then he'd come home from town with loaded shopping bags and say "You can't get any groceries this week - an electric bill has come!" - as if electricity bills came as a bolt from the blue!:D

I think I'd be inclined to agree with those who say don't bring it to the Bank's attention though. As your mother is using the account, and capable of doing so, they have no reason to freeze it. I wouldn't be inclined to ever give "officialdom" any reason to even think about making life more difficult!
 

busymissy

Registered User
Jul 6, 2011
2
0
anglesey, north wales, uk
I've followed this conversation with interest especially the discussion about power of attorney.

My husband was diagnosed 10 months ago & as we have two businesses it has caused many problems & heartache. The bank accounts are not too much of a problem as we have always had our own personal accounts & I have authority to sign on the business accounts & have dealt with the financial side most of the time anyway.

The problems is that my husband is sole proprietor of one business & we are partners in the second, but all the business & other properties are in his name.

When he was given the diagnosis earlier this year the doctor raised the subject of LPA & was given short shrift. A discussion with our solicictor met with the same resistance. This week we both went to see him & I signed the forms for my own LPA as I can see the sense of putting this "insurance" in place. When the solicitor asked my husband again if he was ready to do one his reply was "No, they (i.e.me & the children!) can sort it out when the time comes!"

He won't talk to me or the rest of the family about his diagnosis, he's in total denial that there is anything wrong. He believes that once he is allowed to drive again( he was told to stop driving 11 months ago) everything will be alright & he will be able to "take control again"!

The point I'm making is that it's not as easy as just saying it's time to give power of attorney. How do I persuade a very opinionated,stubborn & proud man of the common sense of it? It amazes me that someone who has always been very anti officialdom should be playing into their hands in this way. Have we passed the point of no return if we can't reason with him over this issue?
 

jenniferpa

Registered User
Jun 27, 2006
39,442
0
Hi and welcome to Talking Point.

I know this sounds simplistic but if he won't (grant an LPA) then he won't. For some people (and with some types of dementia) there is a period of time where it is possible for a person to think through the consequences of failing to set up LPAs etc. For other people, though, the diagnosis comes after that point and there is no point in repining about it. The one thing to hold fast to is that at least there is an option to deal with this situation; deputyship. It's not straightforward and it isn't cheap, but it is doable.

I do think that when it comes to dementia you have to choose your battles wisely. It's one thing to say "you should do this" or "you should arrange this" but if all your ducks aren't it a row then you just have to accept that.


I'm sorry you are having to deal with this, but as it relates to money and property, there should be little problem obtaining a deputyship. Any problems related to this tends to be time or money or if someone (e.g. a family member) sticks their oar in and makes it difficult.
 

2jays

Registered User
Jun 4, 2010
11,598
0
West Midlands
How do I persuade a very opinionated,stubborn & proud man of the common sense of it? It amazes me that someone who has always been very anti officialdom should be playing into their hands in this way.

He is a business man - Tell him that his business will suffer if he doesn't have an LPA - Tell him its no different to making a Will - use the guilt factor, tell him its not fair to leave his family to clear up the mess he will leave if he doesnt. You know his "weak" spots - use them. Little white lies (and great big ones) are sometimes needed, so long as they are common sense/legal - and whilst he has capacity in law to make this decision, use them.

Sounds really harsh - but sometimes, in my opinion, you need to be cruel to be kind
 

grannyjanny

Registered User
Sep 20, 2009
5
0
United Kingdom
Joint bank account

Can anyone advise what is best to do in this situation please. My father is in a care home under assessment for his dementia. He is well beyond having the mental capacity to deal with his finances, and I doubt will ever leave the care home. He has vascular dementia, which is very advanced.

My mother has a joint bank account with him, and their state and private pensions go into it.

My mother has recently been told that the joint bank account could be frozen, and is obviously fretting. Is there any likelihood of this happening?

As she spent years caring for my father, and the condition of their property declined due to lack of attention and a flood in the kitchen, she is now having some work done, but nothing outrageous, she is concerned that this could be seen as spending "his money" and cause her account to be frozen.

The state and private pensions they receive are in each of their names, but the split is not 50/50, dad's part is bigger than mums.

There is no power of attorney in place as they were advised against it by solicitor when they visited whilst dad still had the mental capacity to actually complete one!

TIA

If the bank account only needs one signature then there is no real problem but if the account needs two signatures to access money then you need to sort something out - there was an article in the Daily Mail about this recently. I believe that your solicitor was wrong to advise you against power of attorney as when I did a POA for my husband, I also requested one be done for me which my solicitor agreed with and I was in my late 50's with no sign of any problems, but it was there just in case. You can now apply for the new version of power of attorney and suggest you do this urgently.
 

nitram

Registered User
Apr 6, 2011
30,307
0
Bury
...
He won't talk to me or the rest of the family about his diagnosis, he's in total denial that there is anything wrong. He believes that once he is allowed to drive again( he was told to stop driving 11 months ago) everything will be alright & he will be able to "take control again"!...

The point I'm making is that it's not as easy as just saying it's time to give power of attorney. How do I persuade a very opinionated,stubborn & proud man of the common sense of it?

You could try approaching it from the angle that the power is in case he suffers an accident, eg hit by a car, and suffers brain damage making him incapable of controlling the businesses he has built up.
 

Nan2seven

Registered User
Apr 11, 2009
2,525
0
Dorset
My Brian and I had three bank accounts running at the same time, "his" "mine" and "the housekeeping" into which he used to put a fixed sum each month. But they were all in joint names and it was mostly I who wrote out cheques and paid bills, etc..

He, too, had vascular dementia and I never brought this to the Bank's attention, not feeling that they needed to know. (Felt I had problems enough ...). I did not get a POA done in time as he became ill quite quickly and nor did he leave a Will.

But when he died back in July, the Bank could not have been more helpful, registering the death, transferring the accounts into my sole name, offering advice as to combining the three, etc.. I also dealt with the administration of his estate - very little to do as it was all in joint names bar his pension, and Pensions and Income Tax people were also very helpful. Maybe I have just been a little fortunate in that everything was very straightforward. Just writing to let you know that it can be trouble-free.

Love, Nan XXX