Jittery about registering EPA

Discussion in 'Legal and financial issues' started by Tender Face, Oct 30, 2006.

  1. Tender Face

    Tender Face Account Closed

    Mar 14, 2006
    NW England
    I feel a terrible fraud... hardly able to get here ..... much to share .....

    Burning question .... if anyone can help and allow me to pick up answers when I can ... at what point has anyone with EPA arranged actually decided they register it?

    Mum's diagnosis post scan is (psych-ger's words) 'Alzheimers with Lewy Bodies' ... a fantastic (I thought) 24 (with much prompting) on MMSE last week ... yet in these last few weeks has been considerably less capable than ever - including I am only just unearthing now financial transactions she undertook some 6 months ago which are sounding alarm bells..... (or maybe it's me less capable because I haven't had the luxury of accessing TPers' support at whim?)......

    Like the ostrich I tend to be... I don't want this to be happening ... I think the pysch-ger was as suprised as me that the brain scan did not confirm 'vascular' problems ..... Like the idiot I am I asked 'Is that good news or bad news?' - to which her reply, 'Neither, it's just news.'

    I have felt so 'practical' so organised' at some points... even at the shock of initial mootings of dementia ..... even if I was always a total mess on an emotional level ..... now I feel like I am losing the plot ......

    Kicks up the "derriere" gratefully accepted........

    I'll give anyone who cares to be bored with it all - all the diatribe (some interesting conversations with consultants!!!) when I get fully back on-line hopefully later this week, in the meantime, love and thanks, a very panicky Karen (TF), x
  2. Helena

    Helena Registered User

    May 24, 2006
    Registering an EPA is painless other than the £120 fee

    I got my Mothers back on 3rd October

    The process is clearly set out on Guardianship website and LEGALLY you must now register it as your Mother is clearly mentally incapable

    I am finding mess and muddles that were done over 2 years ago by my Mother

    Everything would have been so much easier if I had got hold of the EPA sooner and registeredit sooner
  3. Rosalind

    Rosalind Registered User

    Jul 2, 2005
    I'm just the same

    Like you, Tender Face, I am at the stage of registering. Have even spoken to solicitor, so imagine it will happen. My reservations are more on a practical level - the sheer tedium of going to banks and showing them stuff and signing things.

    My husband now cannot write a cheque, and while it is unlikely he would do anything wildly stupid with his money an unscrupulous con merchant could probably get him to sign absolutely anything, so it has to be done.

    Courage - it probably won't be as bad as you think.

  4. Margarita

    Margarita Registered User

    Feb 17, 2006
    I been thinking on this one and I am not going to register it with the court.

    I do have EPOA I know my mother would never want this , me to declare that my mother is mentally incapable , if I was in her shoes I also would not want that , its one thing handing over your power of attorney then me going one more step declaring she mentally incapable because she can’t sort her finances, but then still social services take in to consideration and respect my mother wishes of living with me rather then going in to a care home, this is my story other have different views then I.

    I have full control over her finances anyway , so no one going to con my mother to sigh any cheques if my mother was living alone I would be more worried.

    Also if my mother was at the stage of not knowing who I am then I would say that my mother is mentally incapable .

    I find it hard balancing my finances does that make me mentally incapable; I would say that my mother is venerable yes , but my mother understands what I tell her , knows that I have her best interest at heart

    so why do I have to legally state my mother is mentally incapable anyway ?
  5. Brucie

    Brucie Registered User

    Jan 31, 2004
    near London
    I'm not sure that registering an EPA is a matter of whether you feel like doing it.

    The Guardianship web pages are quite precise [http://www.guardianship.gov.uk/theservice/faqs.htm#1]:
    I suggest you contact the Alzheimer's Society and ask to speak to the legal expert.

    It is not just a case of - Mum knows me so she should be okay........
  6. Margarita

    Margarita Registered User

    Feb 17, 2006
    #6 Margarita, Oct 31, 2006
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2006
    Thanks Brucie for that link

    Not being suborn , me never :eek: :rolleyes: but it does leave room ..... when it says
    and do I belive that of my mother . MY lord I say No :D PS (only joking all said in humour , but my mother does know how much money she has coming into the bank , as she keeps reminding me and all those that may be around ,when I have forgotten to buy her something )

    Brucie when I ring the Alzheimer's Society they never Answer the phone , so I don’t bother any more
  7. Skye

    Skye Registered User

    Aug 29, 2006
    SW Scotland

    I’ve been hesitant to post to this thread because the law is slightly different in Scotland. Our solicitor registered our POAs straight away, and kept them in his safe until needed. Brucie will know if this is possible in England.

    Anyway, I don’t see any problem. I’m not declaring John totally incompetent, just recognising that he no longer understands money. I wouldn’t want him to sign any legal document without me there, just as I wouldn’t allow him to cross a busy road on his own. It’s just one more aspect of the disease.

    The person is legally protected, the Scottish law states that:
    · Your intervention must be necessary and must benefit the adult;
    · Your intervention must be the minimum necessary to achieve the purpose;
    · You must take account of the adult's present and past wishes and feelings (and you must try every possible means of communicating with the adult to find out what these are);
    · You must take into account the views of the adult's nearest relative and primary carer, and of any other person with powers to intervene in the adult's affairs or personal welfare, or with an interest in the adult, so far as it is reasonable and practicable to do so;
    · You must encourage the adult to use any skills he or she has.

    I’m sure the English law will have a similar clause.

    One note of warning from personal experience. Some companies will accept a copy of the document, but some demand that if it is a copy every page has to be signed and authorised by the solicitor. I refuse to allow the original out of my hands.

    So it’s a good idea to ask for an authorised copy when you get the document, it probably wouldn’t cost anything, whereas if you have to go back for it, it costs!
  8. Sabato

    Sabato Registered User

    Jan 18, 2006

    I have registered the EPA with the Court of Protection. Mainly to ensure that the EPA was valid as I did it myself without paying a sol. to fill it in.

    But my advice is - don't bother. You can use your EPA without it being registered. The Court of Protection is only a 'means of making sure that you are doing everything above board, but they have said they don't get involved unless somebody complains to them.

    It's been a nightmare as I live in Italy & Halifax refused to accept me as the Attorney cos they needed a UK address, my Mum is in the UK. Anyway I went to the Financial Ombudsman & Halifax now accept me.

    so good luck & feel free to ask any other questions - cos I've probably been there!!!

  9. Helena

    Helena Registered User

    May 24, 2006
    Sorry to disagree but there are many situations and times when only a registered EPA will do

    I agree that in the early stages or with simple finances you can indeed make do with just an EPA

    However if you need to cash in accounts , sell shares , deal with National Savings they in particular are an absolute nightmare and i will be complaining to the Financial Ombudsman about their antics

    Equally if you have a Registered EPA you have ultimate say with doctors etc if your patients lands up in hospital
  10. jenniferpa

    jenniferpa Volunteer Moderator

    Jun 27, 2006
    #10 jenniferpa, Nov 1, 2006
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2006
    Helena I would agree with all your points EXCEPT to one about the hospital. While they may well take your wishes into consideration, as it stands, they have no legal requirement to do so, with or without a registerd EPA. Next year, of course it changes, but that's the current situation in England.
  11. Skye

    Skye Registered User

    Aug 29, 2006
    SW Scotland
    I agree Helena. I don't think an EPA has any legal value until it's registered.
  12. merlin

    merlin Registered User

    Aug 2, 2006
    Registering an EPA


    Agree with all the last threads you should register an EPA. You will find that banks in particular do not seem to recognise an unregistered EPA and only start to stop sending things for your other half to sign on receipt of a registered EPA.
  13. Helena

    Helena Registered User

    May 24, 2006

    Barclays Bank have no problem with an unregistered EPA they will pretty much do as you request

    Nationwide have no problem either

    Cant speak for other banks

    As for Hospitals .......actually they do have to take notice of a registered EPA especially if they are trying to force care home bills onto you

    simple fact is they cant ...............see www.************

    do not be hoodwinked by officialdom
  14. cynron

    cynron Registered User

    Sep 26, 2005
    east sussex

    I found barclays did need a lot of formal signings as my two daughters are attornies alongside me. We all had to prove who we were etc:eek: All of this took many weeks, however Nationwide were brilliant and only wanted the copy of poa certified and signed by the solicitor.:)

  15. DickG

    DickG Registered User

    Feb 26, 2006
    Sorry to disagree with so many of you. It is only necessary to register an EPA when the subject of the EPA is incapable of understanding and cannot express an opinion. Mary had an MMSE of 9 in May this year and is still capable of understanding what I propose and will express an opinion, what she cannot do is remember what we discussed minutes later.

    I previously held an EPA for an elderly neighbour and had a comprehensive briefing by her solicitor prior to taking on the power. His advice was to delay registering the EPA until the last possible minute and only to do so if a doctor advised that my neighbour was incapable of understanding. Throughout the period I held power I meticulously kept accounts and a log of my actions which when my neighbour died I passed on to her solicitor to give to her executors - there was no problem.

    Each case is different but I believe that many people worry unduly about EPAs and provided you are acting in the best interests of the subject you are unlikely to come to grief.

  16. Michael E

    Michael E Registered User

    Apr 14, 2005
    Ronda Spain
    I agree with Sabato & Dick, although it does to some extent depend on particular circumstances.

    I have not 'bothered' to register Monique's POA as I can make all things happen without at the moment. If we had to sell the house or make major financial changes, which required her signature, then probably registration would be useful but as Dick says - 'it is only to regulate that the finances are handled in the best interests of the patient.'

    The POA is a legal document in its own right - registered or not. I think.

  17. Tender Face

    Tender Face Account Closed

    Mar 14, 2006
    NW England
    Thank you so much all of you! Rosalind - that was the hammer needed on the proverbial nail!

    Helena and Brucie - special thanks for the ref/link to the guardianship website - yes, it made me re-read the EPA and realise I have a legal responsibility myself to act now (or bury myself in denial and shudder at the consequences for both me and mum if I were to do that). (And there's me saying mum doesn't know what she's signing!:eek: )

    Much to think about from all of you - and Margarita - I think you realised exactly where I was coming from .... it's the fact *I* am making a declaration about my mother's mental state that kicked in all the emotions. I guess getting the EPA arranged earlier this year (I've managed mum's bank accounts for years just using Third Party Mandates) was like taking out an insurance policy - you hope you're never going to have to use it...... and certainly not so soon ...

    Oh well, here goes ....

    Love to all, Karen (TF), x
  18. Doreen K

    Doreen K Registered User

    Dec 8, 2005
    My sister and I registered our EPA for our Mother when she was becoming unable to cope with her financial affairs. The last straw was when she was conned out of over £500 by a bogus holiday company that phones from America. This is an unscrupulous lot who say the recipient of the call has won a holiday. Mum was thrilled and gave them her bank details. The con is well known but nobody seems to be able to stop it. The only way we could stop it happening again was to remove any bank details from her house. It felt unkind to treat her this way but we made sure she always had some cash in her purse so that she felt she could still buy things when she wanted to.

    It does mean more work but also peace of mind that her affairs are now in order.

    All the best.

    Doreen K
  19. Tender Face

    Tender Face Account Closed

    Mar 14, 2006
    NW England
    Dick, please, no apologies certainly on my account - I find it's often the exchange of different opinions (aka 'disagreements'!) that actually helps me here .... :)

    I also wonder what difference POA/EPA has between partners vs. parents and children ..... hugely different I gather, and would appreciate anyone who has registered EPA for a parent living independently sharing their experience.....

    With appointments with the solicitors and banks arranged for next week, appreciate any thoughts on my next question:

    Can anyone explain how if someone is believed to be incapable of managing their (financial affairs) they are simultaneously deemed capable of agreeing to registering the EPA?

    Mum has trusted me for years to carry out her wishes..... and the Court of Protection could investigate me now and I have no qualms about the management of her money ..... ask her to relinquish her 'debit' card and I know I'm fighting a 'last bastion' of independence....

    I've jotted some options to ask both banks and solicitors (like putting withdrawal limit on the card, assuming I can register POA/EPA and still allow her SOME leeway) - but if anyone has any ideas for making this painful process more transparent to mum I would really appreciate your thoughts,

    Thanks all, Karen (TF), x
  20. Michael E

    Michael E Registered User

    Apr 14, 2005
    Ronda Spain
    In 'theory' people may only sign a POA BEFORE they loose their marbles... For most of us we do a 'sleight of hand'. We realise the situation is becoming untenable and ask - persuade the paitient to sign it...

    How clearly they understand what they are signing is perhaps open to question but the legal requirement is that the witness and you believe that at the moment of signing they fully understood what it was and what they were doing.

    There is nobody in the world, after the event, who can say whether or not they fully understood... The 'world' just has to trust the judgement of you and your witness..

    The paitient does not have to agree to the registration.... They have agreed to the POA when they signed so it can be registered at any time without further reference to the paitient.. Who has now 'lost it'.

    The registration is there for the protection of the paitient and is quite cleverly framed. It requires that the other close relatives are informed in writing with the option to object. It provides a platform for 'interested' parties to questing the actions of the holder(s) of the POA and require accounts..

    I am sure the AZ society has a fact sheet about it but I am 99% certain that the above is correct... For people with modest amounts of money its all pretty straightforward... Millionaires might need lawyers..


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