January Lockdown

[MartinWL]

The regulations are just out this evening.

For carers the rules are pretty much the same as Tier 4 was until today. There are:
-no travel restrictions
-no mention of overnight stays

The main restriction relevant to carers is just the same as T4 before, you must not leave home without a reasonable excuse. There are many more reasonable excuses listed and it is not an exclusive list. Don't listen to anyone who says there are just five reasons to go out, that is not accurate. The important one is that it is ok to go out if it is reasonably necessary to provide care or assistance to a vulnerable person. There is no distance limit which is a relief to me and other long distance carers. Do remember that social visiting is not allowed, and it has to be reasonably necessary. I know a lot of us take a husband or wife or partner along when going to care for a loved-one, but be careful not to do that unless it is reasonably necessary - if one person alone can provide the care so be it.

Support bubbles stay the same, and you can travel to visit your linked household. The guidance does suggest staying local but that has not gone info the law so is just advisory.

 

[Lynmax]

The guidance also states that visits to a care home are permitted but mums care home have stopped all visits again. I am struggling to see the logic for this when visits are behind a sealed screen in a pod, accessed from an outside door with no entry into the home.

 

[MartinWL]

The guidance also states that visits to a care home are permitted but mums care home have stopped all visits again. I am struggling to see the logic for this when visits are behind a sealed screen in a pod, accessed from an outside door with no entry into the home.

There isn't any logic to that at all. Complain. Ask to see their risk assessment.

 

[Duggies-girl]

That's reassuring because I have a day out tomorrow. I am driving half way round the M25 to take my son for a small medical procedure. I will have to wait outside in the car but I can take a sandwich and listen to some music.

Pure bliss, an hour or so on my own.

 

[MartinWL]

That's reassuring because I have a day out tomorrow. I am driving half way round the M25 to take my son for a small medical procedure. I will have to wait outside in the car but I can take a sandwich and listen to some music.

Pure bliss, an hour or so on my own.

Is your son a child or a vulnerable adult? If so you should be OK. If your son were perfectly capable of getting to the appointment on the train, on his own, I am not so sure that you could do this, legally. The law might be less than logical but driving someone else just for reasons of convenience isn't an exemption.

 

[Jessbow]

Is your son a child or a vulnerable adult? If so you should be OK. If your son were perfectly capable of getting to the appointment on the train, on his own, I am not so sure that you could do this, legally. The law might be less than logical but driving someone else just for reasons of convenience isn't an exemption.

If her son is having a procedure that involves not driving then it fine. An anesthetic or sedation would make it okay.

Take the letter with you

 

[jennifer1967]

i would have thought it was more advisable because if the person has to travel by train, theres more risk of catching the virus.

 

[Duggies-girl]

Is your son a child or a vulnerable adult? If so you should be OK. If your son were perfectly capable of getting to the appointment on the train, on his own, I am not so sure that you could do this, legally. The law might be less than logical but driving someone else just for reasons of convenience isn't an exemption.

Yes he is an adult and he could have taken the train and then another train and then the tube. Then he could have taken a walk for a mile or so. It was in north London and not the easiest place to get to from our part of Kent It was actually a small surgical procedure in a very uncomfortable place with local anaesthetic so I judged that a car ride would be easier and much more comfortable for him and I don't think many would argue with that.

The drive took about 40 minutes on the M25 and he was delivered to the car park of the clinic and went in alone. He was out within 35 minutes and were home in another 40 minutes. The Dartford tunnel was a breeze as was the M25

I think he may have struggled on the train. I could have let him drive himself but for comfort's sake it was better that I drive him.

Also my husband is slightly vulnerable (over 70 with a heart condition) and if any of us can avoid a train journey we will.

Yes @Jessbow we took the letter in case we were stopped.

 

[jennifer1967]

he doesnt need to be left vulnerable to infection. you made a risk assessment and acted on it.

 

[MartinWL]

What you say @Duggies-girl is all very reasonable and I completely agree with you, but the law probably doesn't. The 17 reasonable excuses in the regulations do not include one of avoiding inconvenience. You would have to argue if prosecuted that you had an unlisted reasonable excuse for not being at home because the list of 17 isn't exclusive, any excuse is reasonable if the magistrate agrees. If I were the magistrate you'd be acquitted without a stain on your character but unfortunately I am not on the bench. One hopes that police officers would take a common sense view and I suppose most do, but there have been reports of exceptions to that.

Of course your son has a cast iron reasonable excuse, attending medical appointments is a listed exemption for him.

Whether these laws are good laws of not is of course another matter and I will not expand on what I think about that!

 

[MartinWL]

If her son is having a procedure that involves not driving then it fine. An anesthetic or sedation would make it okay.

Take the letter with you

Unfortunately the regulations do not make an exception to the "stay home" edict for people carrying letters. Nor do they permit a person to leave home in order to assist a person who isn't classified as vulnerable. You may think they should in the circumstances but you'd have to argue that it was an unspecified reasonable excuse. I doubt that getting a lift because it is quicker than public transport would get you far. These things have not been tested in court.

 

[Duggies-girl]

What you say @Duggies-girl is all very reasonable and I completely agree with you, but the law probably doesn't. The 17 reasonable excuses in the regulations do not include one of avoiding inconvenience. You would have to argue if prosecuted that you had an unlisted reasonable excuse for not being at home because the list of 17 isn't exclusive, any excuse is reasonable if the magistrate agrees. If I were the magistrate you'd be acquitted without a stain on your character but unfortunately I am not on the bench. One hopes that police officers would take a common sense view and I suppose most do, but there have been reports of exceptions to that.

Of course your son has a cast iron reasonable excuse, attending medical appointments is a listed exemption for him.

Whether these laws are good laws of not is of course another matter and I will not expand on what I think about that!

To be honest I don't much care what the law says and if it were me having a surgical procedure I wouldn't be getting a bus or a train, my husband would be taking me in the car and if he was not available then my son would drive me. We all live in the same house so I think that is perfectly acceptable.

I don't think the police would be that concerned about the matter because it is just common sense. If my son had got the train then I would have had to pick him up from the station anyway. I certainly wouldn't expect him to walk from the station to our house because it would likely be extremely uncomfortable for him and could actually compromise the procedure he had just had done. I don't think anyone could argue with that.

 

[MartinWL]

To be honest I don't much care what the law says and if it were me having a surgical procedure I wouldn't be getting a bus or a train, my husband would be taking me in the car and if he was not available then my son would drive me. We all live in the same house so I think that is perfectly acceptable.

I don't think the police would be that concerned about the matter because it is just common sense. If my son had got the train then I would have had to pick him up from the station anyway. I certainly wouldn't expect him to walk from the station to our house because it would likely be extremely uncomfortable for him and could actually compromise the procedure he had just had done. I don't think anyone could argue with that.

We probably all agree, I certainly do. But I fear the legal position however daft you may think it, is that giving a non- vulnerable person in your household a lift ibecause it is more convenient for them isn't necessarily a valid reason for not staying home. To repeat, this hasn't been tested in court so there's no definitive answer. .

 

[Duggies-girl]

We probably all agree, I certainly do. But I fear the legal position however daft you may think it, is that giving a non- vulnerable person in your household a lift ibecause it is more convenient for them isn't necessarily a valid reason for not staying home. To repeat, this hasn't been tested in court so there's no definitive answer. .

I am glad that you agree @MartinWL but I would still argue that it is not for the sake of convenience, it is for the sake of pure common sense. If he had gone by train then he could have picked up anything on the way there and if he had come home on the train then he would have put himself at risk of pulling a stitch or worse which would have meant a second trip to put right any damage he had done to himself. It was a very minor op but in a place that he would not like me to mention and he does not want to have to repeat the procedure so we erred on the safe side which meant no driving for him and as little stress on that part of the body as possible so no mile hikes before or after for a couple of days.

He has recovered well and is now back to normal which I am glad of but I would do again without hesitation for his sake and nothing more.

 

[Lawson58]

The whole point of a lockdown is to reduce contact between people and to minimize the risk of infection. That will only be successful if everybody complies with the rules. Everybody. If we all said that we are not going to comply because in our opinion it wasn't common sense then it is not a stretch too far to find an excuse to do anything that suits us.

New Zealand and Australia had the toughest lockdown regulations in the world and we now reap the benefits of all those dreadful weeks and months.

Lockdown is about everybody doing what is best for us all, not just ourselves as individuals.

Just my humble opinion.

 

[margherita]

Lockdown is about everybody doing what is best for us all, not just ourselves as individuals.

I completely agree.

 

[jennifer1967]

can i say duggies-girl that i am glad that your son is recovering well. you made a common sense judgement so your son wasnt vulnerable to infection or or undo the surgeons work. hospitals like people not to use public transport as its easier to catch the virus if mixing people which they wouldnt normally be in contact with. there is a regulation that says about driving people to medical appts especially as you are from the same household. i had a voluntary driver drive me to a medical appt as it cuts the risk to me and to my husband who is extremely vulnerable.

 

[MaNaAk]

I am glad that you agree @MartinWL but I would still argue that it is not for the sake of convenience, it is for the sake of pure common sense. If he had gone by train then he could have picked up anything on the way there and if he had come home on the train then he would have put himself at risk of pulling a stitch or worse which would have meant a second trip to put right any damage he had done to himself. It was a very minor op but in a place that he would not like me to mention and he does not want to have to repeat the procedure so we erred on the safe side which meant no driving for him and as little stress on that part of the body as possible so no mile hikes before or after for a couple of days.

He has recovered well and is now back to normal which I am glad of but I would do again without hesitation for his sake and nothing more.

Dear @Duggies-girl,

I completely agree with you and I am pleased that your son feels better. The regulations allow for medical appointments and discourage us from using public transport where one can pick up any virus.

MaNaAk

 

[MartinWL]

Dear @Duggies-girl,

I completely agree with you and I am pleased that your son feels better. The regulations allow for medical appointments and discourage us from using public transport where one can pick up any virus.

MaNaAk

The regulations say nothing at all about not using public transport. It is a reasonable excuse not to be at home to attend a medical appointment. The regulations do not include an exemption for chauffeuring members of your family, who are not vulnerable. Maybe they should, but they don't.

 

[MaNaAk]

I agree and they need to be made clearer as we go in or out of lockdown.

MaNaAk