Is it too late for power of attorney?

Discussion in 'Legal and financial issues' started by Grandaughter 1, Aug 12, 2006.

  1. Grandaughter 1

    Grandaughter 1 Registered User

    Jan 17, 2006
    141
    Hampshire
    Luckily the solicitor didn't ask to speak to Grandad alone but did keep repeatedly asking him if he was happy which began to annoy Grandad!

    I just sat in the corner and tried not to talk as I was very aware that I didn't want to put words in Nan or Grandad's mouth. I must admit to feeling like I was doing something wrong even though I'm not even going to be an attorney my Mum is!!

    As for the cost, my Nan couldn't give 2 hoots how much it costs as long as it's sorted! Oh to have the same sort of cavalier attitude to money myself!!!!!:D

    Louise
     
  2. Helena

    Helena Registered User

    May 24, 2006
    715
    For most Banks and financial institutions you will not need to register the EPA

    Take it to the Bank first

    They should stamp it as acceptable and process it

    then if you ask nicely they will make copies and stamp those and sign them as authentic copies of the original

    Then you can send copies to any Companies etc that your Mum needs to deal with and there should be no problem

    Be sure to ask for them back though

    Actually it would be a good idea if you are JOINT attorney for your Dad because then if your Mum finds it difficult you can handle things too
     
  3. Grandaughter 1

    Grandaughter 1 Registered User

    Jan 17, 2006
    141
    Hampshire
    Helen - It's funny you should suggest me being joint attorney as I would be very happy to do so. I have a background in financial services too so am more than happy to deal with the banks etc, however my Uncle is going to be the other one as Nan thought it would only be fair that both her and Grandad's children did it to save any arguments!!?
     
  4. Helena

    Helena Registered User

    May 24, 2006
    715
    Well at least you know where to come for advice on using it

    do not let your gran get sucked in to registering it unnessecarily

    i have only been using my Mothers for the last month so I know what things are like
     
  5. tedsmum

    tedsmum Registered User

    Jun 28, 2006
    34
    I have been on the site several times but have changed my username to remain annonomous. I have been to see a solicitor today who feels its worth one more try to get POA. She really couldn't have been more helpful and is going to see my dad next week to decide if it is possible.
    It seems that Social Services would rather you leave everything to them but she strongly felt that it would be in everyone elses interests to get POA. I don't know about you but I feel my whole lifes being taken over by this and can't remember a time without it.
    Remember we are all going through the same problems and there will always be someone who understands on the site.
    Take care
     
  6. Helena

    Helena Registered User

    May 24, 2006
    715
    Its an EPA you need not POA

    You can download the forms yourself and get them signed in front of a witness

    all it needs its a few seconds of co operation from the patient
     
  7. jenniferpa

    jenniferpa Volunteer Moderator

    Jun 27, 2006
    39,429
    I think that's true if there are no other potential heirs, but I'd be a bit wary if there was someone else who might challenge it - we all know how funny (i.e. peculiar) people can be where there's money involved.

    Jennifer
     
  8. alfjess

    alfjess Registered User

    Jul 10, 2006
    1,213
    south lanarkshire
    Poa

    Hi everyone
    When Dad was diagnosed with AD, I took Mum and Dad to a Solicitor where they signed a continuing POA, appointing me as attorney. I don't know if this is the same as enduring POA, we are in Scotland? At the time, 26th April 2005, we paid to register the POA,s. Shortly after this, Mum was also diagnosed with AD.
    Since then I have been phoning the Solicitor asking for the registered document. Only recently he has admitted,that he has lost the oringinal signed POA.s This has caused me no end of trouble.
    The Solicitor has admitted he is at fault and is coming here next Tuesday to have other Poa,s signed. Mum and Dad have deteriorated so much since they signed the first POA,s, I am now wondering what will happen?
    Alfjess
     
  9. jenniferpa

    jenniferpa Volunteer Moderator

    Jun 27, 2006
    39,429
    #29 jenniferpa, Aug 18, 2006
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2006
    Oh Good Grief - Professional? I don't think so. You poor think having to cope with this as well. I imagine the rules are different in Scotland, but surely there is some sort of solicitor oversight? I don't understand why your parents weren't given an original in the first place. Have you found out whether the POA was in fact registered? Or was it lost before that? I would be very wary of having the same incompetant solicitor do it again, and I would defintiely demand the fees back. I can forsee problems in the future (do you have anyone who might object?) if it comes out that these were signed when your parents weren't competent.

    Jennifer

    I had a look around the Pubilc Guardianship Office http://www.publicguardian-scotland.gov.uk/whatwedo/power_of_attorney.asp
    I see you also have something called a Welfare Power of Attorney - dealing with health and care, and if you haven't got one of those, I would suggest you get one of them as well, if possible. If it isn't possible to get a continuing power of atorney, the OPG site tells you what you have to do in order to become an Intervener
     
  10. alfjess

    alfjess Registered User

    Jul 10, 2006
    1,213
    south lanarkshire
    Poa

    Hi Jennifer
    Thanks for your reply, the Poa,s have not been registered - as far as anyone can tell - because the Solicitor has lost them and he says, in transit by courier to Edinburgh,to be registered?? Another Solicitor I phoned says they are registered in Falkirk?? I still do not really know where Poa,s in Scotland are registered and with looking after both Mum and Dad, finding time to deal with this also is not priority, although important
    As to using the same incompetant Solictor as before, I am hoping that, as it was his C--- UP to begin with, he can now fix it out and yes it is already causing problems. My parents own property and it would be best if it was sold, but I cannot do that, without POA. I have only one brother and he has agreed that I am the appointed attorney.
    I just wonder, as my Parents are soo much worse than when they signed the oringinal POA,S, where do we go from here.Now that we have t o start the whole process again, I am not sure that my parents understand what it is all about, but, they did at the time of first signing
    Do not always trust the professionals
    alfjess
     
  11. Helena

    Helena Registered User

    May 24, 2006
    715
    Phone the Scottish Alzheimers helpline

    They have extremely knowledgeable people on there

    They know where POAs are registered in Scotland i know the system is different to the UK
     
  12. alfjess

    alfjess Registered User

    Jul 10, 2006
    1,213
    south lanarkshire
    Poa

    Hi Jennifer
    Forgot to say thanks for the link, I will peruse it when I am not soo tired and also thanks everyone on TP for all the support.
    I would like to be able to give more back to others, but when I try, I get distracted ---- by, Mum, Dad, Daughters, Grandchildren, etc. but then, there are more people in this Forum who give great help and advice. More than I ever could.
    Thank you everyone. I know we are all more or less in the same situation, but some are better than others at spreading themselves.
    Alfjess
     
  13. alfjess

    alfjess Registered User

    Jul 10, 2006
    1,213
    south lanarkshire
    Poa

    Hi Helena
    Yes, That is good advice. I will phone Alzheimers Scotland on Monday. Don't know why I didn't think of that. Too tired probably!
    Thanks
    Alfjess
     
  14. Helena

    Helena Registered User

    May 24, 2006
    715
    Theres a guy on their helpline whose MIL has VD and he is truly brilliant its hit and miss as to who you will speak to but its a freephone number and all of them are very nice
     
  15. intensityp

    intensityp Registered User

    Aug 16, 2006
    24
    home owners

    my mum carer for my dad.. tried through a solicitor to put their house in our names (children) , so the government could not steal everything if it came to the point that dad had to go into a home or mum got ill too... and also to keep her secure financially... but with AD you have to do that 7 years or something before a certain decline ( my dad dropped down the AZ table) so she can only sign of her half of the house and god forbid if dad needs to go into care they take the other half.So not only does she lose the love of her life but faces this too
     
  16. jenniferpa

    jenniferpa Volunteer Moderator

    Jun 27, 2006
    39,429
    #36 jenniferpa, Aug 20, 2006
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2006
    Intensityp - I would suggest you check out 2 leaflets from Age concern
    www.ageconcern.org.uk/AgeConcern/Documents/Payingforcareinacarehomeifyouhaveapartner_FS39.pdf
    and
    www.ageconcern.org.uk/AgeConcern/Documents/Treatment_of_former_hme_as_capital_FS38AM031.pdf

    Of specific relevance - in the event a spouse needs to enter care, the marital property is disregarded. So in your case, should your father need to enter a care home, his half of the value of your parents home will not be counted in his assets. Only if at some point your Mother decides to sell that home will his share start to be counted, and even then it might not be 50% (for example, if your Mother had to use more than 50% of the proceeds to purchase another home for herself). So, whoever told you that they would lose your father's share of the house to the LA is mistaken. That clock would only start ticking when the property was sold.

    With regard to transferring property into someone else's name, there is no specific period of time where the transfer becomes "safe" from social service claw back. Case law indicates that it was the intent at the time of transfer which is the salient point. If the intent was to intentional deprive yourself of assets it could, theoretically, be more than 7 years, although that is unlikely. Equally, it could be considerably less, although in both cases, you're talking about serious legal bills to avoid such a social services claw back. The seven year period that is bandied about relates to inheritance tax, though even then, if it was done for that reason, but the person doing the giving remained living in the property, and wasn't paying a fair market rent, it would be considered a "gift with reservation" and would NOT be safe from inheritance tax.

    I do think that it is extremely unwise to start mucking about with transferring property unless you are absolutely sure you know what you are doing. Even with a solicitors help, you run the risk of getting yourself into a worse situation. Many, perhaps most, solicitors do not have the knowledge to provide this kind of specialist knowledge - you need a specialist advisor.

    Jennifer
     
  17. Sally

    Sally Registered User

    Mar 16, 2004
    114
    London
    EPA confusion!

    Hello everyone,

    Many systems that are set up by government do not necessarily suit people with dementia, this we know! EPA sometimes falls into this category with certain people but that is no reason to ignore the rules that govern setting up and using this legal instrument. In fact, as an attorney there are a duties that must be fulfilled by law therefore failure to comply with guidance can be a very serious matter.

    For example, it IS necessary for the person to know what it is that they are signing. They do not have to be able to quote the Mental Health Act verbatim but they do have to be able to communicate that they know what it is that they are agreeing to. Although most carers are acting in the best interests of the person with dementia, not everybody out there is, this is why you cannot persuade the person to sign the document just for the sake of avoiding the charges incurred by receivership.

    People also think that they can avoid paying to register the form and simply use it as it is. This view appears to be correct when banks accept unregistered powers without checking with the account holder that they are happy for this to happen. However, as an attorney you are duty bound to register the EPA when the person is losing capacity to handle their money. If the person was financially abused in some way and the Court of Protection discovered the EPA had not been registered this could result in them dismissing the attorney and appointing a receiver.

    Being an attorney is a very responsible undertaking and this will be emphasised when Lasting Powers of Attorney are introduced in April 2007. There will be a much more strict system for assessing the donor's ability to understand the forms so that it will not be so easy for people to persuade relatives to sign documents that fundamentally they do not understand, which is quite right considering the vulnerability of this client group in terms of financial abuse.

    all the best,
    Sally
     
  18. Brucie

    Brucie Registered User

    Jan 31, 2004
    12,413
    near London
    Hi Sally

    thanks so much for your clarification!

    A question that I would pose, since this signing of EPAs is such a critical issue.

    When I changed my Will recently, my solicitor asked if I wished to make an EPA at the same time - for myself. Apparently this is something that is sensible to contemplate as [as far as I know] I am reasonable mentally ok at present - others might beg to differ :eek:

    If everyone signed such a document early on - changing it whenever needs dictated - then a whole lot of complication would be bypassed.

    Any ideas on this?

    By the way, I didn't have an EPA made for me - I wasn't about to pay his fees. But I will make one myself, as I did for a living will.
     
  19. Sally

    Sally Registered User

    Mar 16, 2004
    114
    London
    Hi Brucie,

    Everyone should have an EPa (she says, not having one). I remember years ago hearing an interview with a woman on Radio 4 whose husband was in a coma following a motorbike accident. To add to her woes, when she broke down in the bank, the cashier froze all their joint accounts. She then had to apply for receivership which back then probably took weeks if not months (it would take two days at least just to order the forms, complete them and send them back, in the meantime how she ate I do not know). This story made a big impact on me as we do normally think it is only people at obvious risk of incapacity who should be signing these forms. In fact, anyone could get into an accident and pose a problem for their family if they need to access their money.

    Regards,
    Sally
     
  20. Grandaughter 1

    Grandaughter 1 Registered User

    Jan 17, 2006
    141
    Hampshire
    Hi all,

    What Sally says is most useful. When the solicitor came to chat to Grandad about the EPA, Nan decided to get one done too so we don't have the same problems later on if Nan becomes ill etc. The solicitor highly recommended it as otherwise people get caught and then have to apply down the costly receivership route I believe. Nan can choose to delay her's if she likes but she trusts my Mum implicitly and has decided not to do so.

    The EPA could prove really useful if for example Nan broke a bone and couldn't leave the house, therefore, Mum could pay her bills and do her banking for her.

    I just hope it's not too late for an EPA for Grandad as the solicitor is writing to Grandads GP. I hope this is just a formality and not because she thought Grandad was too far gone to understand what she was saying.

    Louise x
     

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