If financial assessment isn't completed, what happens?

Chemmy

Registered User
Nov 7, 2011
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Yorkshire
Just a view from the sidelines - if no-one is prepared to pay the CH whilst this is being argued about, then I would be very reluctant to leave my loved one in their care or visit under such circumstances.

I found building a good relationship with the manager and staff was essential.
 
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katek

Registered User
Jan 19, 2015
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Chemmy

But where would they go? The fact that they have to go into a nursing home presumably means they could not be cared for at home.
 

Chemmy

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Nov 7, 2011
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Yorkshire
Chemmy

But where would they go? The fact that they have to go into a nursing home presumably means they could not be cared for at home.

I'm not suggesting they should be anywhere else. But if I had been refusing to pay the CH fees for my mum, I wouldn't have been comfortable showing my face there on a visit and I might have been wondering about the standard of her care. The staff certainly wouldn't be 'going the extra mile'.

To me, this smacks of protecting the inheritance, potentially at the expense of the person whose assets they actually are. Apologies if I've misread the situation.

If CHC is granted on appeal, then it should be backdated.
 

LYN T

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Aug 30, 2012
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Brixham Devon
I'm not suggesting they should be anywhere else. But if I had been refusing to pay the CH fees for my mum, I wouldn't have been comfortable showing my face there on a visit and I might have been wondering about the standard of her care. The staff certainly wouldn't be 'going the extra mile'.

To me, this smacks of protecting the inheritance, potentially at the expense of the person whose assets they actually are. Apologies if I've misread the situation.

If CHC is granted on appeal, then it should be backdated.

Oh no! I just couldn't have not paid. To have a good mutual relationship between the Carers and next of kin is essential. I couldn't have coped with an atmosphere as you have to have so much contact with the staff in a NH/CH. Pay then argue about it later.

Take care

Lyn T
 

Saffie

Registered User
Mar 26, 2011
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Near Southampton
I just don't understand any of this.
Surely the assets are the property of the person concerned.
The holder of the LPA has undertaken to do the best they can to use those assets wisely for the benefit of the person who owns them.
They have also, if they have Health and Welfare LPA as well, undertaken to to make sure that the person concerned has the best care possible.
Withholding NH fees cannot be said to be complying with this undertaking.

It sounds as thought CHC funding has been refused.
A decision has been made as, until it has been, there is nothing against which to appeal.
Therefore, the fees have to be paid by somebody so a financial assessment is in order, so that the LA can assist if it is deemed necessary - or not.
Why not just go ahead with it?
If the CHC appeal is successful, the payment will be backdated and if it isn't successful, then the fees will have to be paid anyway.

Sorry if I've missed something but it sounds like common sense to me!
 

LYN T

Registered User
Aug 30, 2012
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Brixham Devon
I'm so glad others are confused by this thread :D

Well i've read through again. There is an appeal against the refusal of CHC funding (I think) this happens on a regular basis-I did the same. However, I carried on paying from my Husband's funds and waited for the whole thing to start again after which Pete was awarded CHC funding. I then applied for the retrospective funds to be repaid. As my latest thread outlines I was given a partial refund. It's up to me whether I wish to contest the 9 weeks and 4 days that were deemed not refundable.

I hope someone can give a further explanation as to why the Dementia sufferer is having her CH bills left unpaid (or possibly the person holding the LPA is considering such action) :confused:
 

fr0d0

Registered User
Dec 23, 2009
186
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Mid Wales
The LPA isn't considering such an action. The initial question was on the cost of the deferred payments. If the LA pay, at what rate do they pay? Do they pay the LA rate or the public rate? Surely the LPA for finance holder has a duty to represent the patients best interests?
 

fr0d0

Registered User
Dec 23, 2009
186
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Mid Wales
The nursing home in question seem to be fully sympathetic to the family/LPA plight. I'm sure they wouldn't be so unprofessional to actually make the patient suffer as seems to be being suggested here.
 

Chemmy

Registered User
Nov 7, 2011
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Yorkshire
. If the LA pay, at what rate do they pay? Do they pay the LA rate or the public rate?

The LA will pay the LA rate.

The attorney will be expected to pay the public rate, on behalf of the donor, the same as the rest of us, unless, I suppose, they can negotiate a separate rate with the CH. Why should this case be any different?
 
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fr0d0

Registered User
Dec 23, 2009
186
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Mid Wales
My question is, all things being above board, if a charge is put on a persons assets, obviously the LA is going to be doing the paying. Does that mean that the payments to the LA would be the LA rate and not the public rate.

Sorry if people are upset by this.
 

jenniferpa

Registered User
Jun 27, 2006
39,442
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Just to clarify:

You are asking if (for example) the home charges self-funding clients £700 and LA clients £500 how much will the LA allow to be deferred, £500 or £700?

In fact, I could tell you "neither"

The difference between what a resident is assessed as being able to contribute from means- tested income and assets including his former main or only home and the amount he would be assessed as being able to contribute if his main or only home were disregarded is then deferred.

but that doesn't answer your primary question. My belief is that since it is the council who would contract with the home, the possible fee that would be chargeable would be the LA rate (less any income of course) plus any agreed top-ups.

Basically the answer is: it depends.
 

fr0d0

Registered User
Dec 23, 2009
186
0
Mid Wales
Thanks Jennifer, I think that's as clear as it gets, and is very useful.

Sorry I meant to say a deferred payment agreement and not a 'charge'.
 

fr0d0

Registered User
Dec 23, 2009
186
0
Mid Wales
Jennifer - I keep re reading your quoted text and can't make head nor tail of it! Could you help explain please?
 

fr0d0

Registered User
Dec 23, 2009
186
0
Mid Wales
Hmm... How about this:

"The difference between income+assets and income is deferred"

Makes no sense still :(. What's the full text/ source?

Say, using your figures of £500 & £700, the residents income was £600, with assets of £500,000, what is the answer?

In you're final paragraph Jennifer, you say "less any income". What does that mean?

Thank you.
 

Chemmy

Registered User
Nov 7, 2011
7,589
0
Yorkshire
Apologies, Fr0d0. I think we misunderstood as your initial question was very vague. :)

Jennifer's clarification has raised an interesting point and looking round the websites, there doesn't seem to be a clear cut answer.

However, this document from Bromley council, might possibly shed a little light .... p25 onwards

http://www.bromley.gov.uk/download/downloads/id/483/paying_for_your_care_home

The paragraph at the end of page 31 seems to suggest payment is at the LA rate.

But perhaps rather than speculating, wouldnt it be better to just fill in the assessment form and sit down with the council and work out what's going to happen in this particular case? If they want a deferred payment, they're going to have to do that at some time anyway.
 

Saffie

Registered User
Mar 26, 2011
22,513
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Near Southampton
In you're final paragraph Jennifer, you say "less any income". What does that mean?
As there is a time difference between us and America, I'll just pop in to say that I think it means that any income will have to be paid towards the fees if the LA are funding, just as happens for everyone.
That is the rate would be the LA rate less any income paid by the resident.
That's how I read it anyway. Jennifer will correct this if it is wrong.
Nobody gets totally free care as income has to be included.

I agree with Chemmy. Surely it woud be easier to just go along with the assessment and accept the judgement of the LA.
 

Chemmy

Registered User
Nov 7, 2011
7,589
0
Yorkshire
With a £500k property and an income of £600 pw, I'm surprised her savings will below the threshold
Universal Deferred Payments Scheme
The Care Act obliges local authorities to offer deferred payment agreements, which are currently made available
by some – but not all – local authorities. This will involve local authorities in taking an interest-bearing charge on
the property of an individual against the cost of care fees,
to be repaid after the individual’s death. Interest will be chargeable throughout the lifetime of the deferred payment. The regulations will specify a maximum rate (expected to
be between 3.5% and 5% per annum) which will be kept under annual review. Loans will be structured to minimise accumulation of interest.
Deferred payments are in effect a financial product, being sold by local authorities to individual clients, intended to ensure that no individual has to sell their home during their own lifetime to meet their care needs. The Department
of Health consultation paper ’Caring for our future: Implementing funding reform’ proposed that the deferred payments scheme will be available to those who have assets (excluding their property) of less than £23,250.
This consultation is now closed and the Government is considering the responses it has received. Universal Deferred Payments are expected to come into effect from April 2015

https://www.justadviser.com/Documents/1031672%20Technical%20Bulletin%20Care%20Act%20overview.pdf
 

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