I am so stressed by my bullying brother over our joint POA it is making me ill

Discussion in 'Legal and financial issues' started by HelenC23, Dec 1, 2018.

  1. HelenC23

    HelenC23 Registered User

    Dec 1, 2018
    #1 HelenC23, Dec 1, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2018
    Hello everyone , my name is Helen

    Firstly I would like to thank you for listening and tell you that I really love my mum and she has alzheimers.

    She has helped me so much through my life and I moved in with my mum 18 months ago and have now been helping her and I have no problems with this.

    I love living with my mum in many ways - despite the hard work - my siblings are vile though ( 2 of them )- I think they demonstrate the dark traid of personality traits and they are very uncaring towards my mother

    Both of these siblings are best friends and see themselves as very caring and responsible which is frankly delusional

    They have poor theory of mind skills - so they cannot empathise or reflect - the normal reciprocity that occurs within relationships are absent with this pair.

    They have very fixed thinking traits they cannot see context in any given situation and they focus on random details - they are also always think they are right , no grey areas ...

    I will give you an example sibling (1) visits my mum about an hour every couple of weeks or so - when my mother had a fall and head injury post a flu illnesses earlier in this year - I informed her the ambulance was here and had blue lighted her to hospital - I sent video through the day and stayed with my mum through all her tests and CT scans from 0700 hrs until 2100hrs when she was ready to go home

    Sibling1 a female said she was too busy to come and see mum in hospital because she was at work (15 miles Way ) she then rocked up

    like the queen mother at 2100hrs and insisted on driving mum home !

    So off she went with mum in tow - as for me I have a responsible job and work full time and I rang my boss and was given emergency annual leave - anyway I digress

    When I arrived at my mums my sister was there slightly fussing over my mum but not really and she turned to me and said

    '' we are so different - I am so calm and you are so anxious '

    Bearing in mInd I had just had one of the most stressful days off my life - not knowing if mum had a brain bleed or not etc

    I was dumbfounded - anyway - she gave my mum some words of soothing wisdom and scuttled on her way - not to be seen for another 3 weeks - she lives 20 miles away

    So I made sure mum was ok - got her to bed - slept on the floor in her room on a make shift bed - because she could not even sit up in bed - she was fully mobile before her fall

    In the morning she was so distressed and had wet the bed - so I sorted her out - sorted the bed out - helped her and escorted her down stairs and made sure she ate etc etc

    For the next two weeks I repeated this - I took time e off work to care for her - and I did it to a high standard - I also organised full time carers for when I was back at work - until she was back on her feet

    About 3 weeks later my sister 'what's app ' d me and said how is mum and I explained and she said via' whats app'

    ' you are so anxious'

    So I said

    ' why do you keep saying that ?'

    She said

    ' you are sleeping on mums floor for ff sake '

    I was mortified at her callousness and insensitivity and lack of the understanding in relation to how seriously ill mum had been

    I cut off contact at that point

    About a month later I arrived home e and had an urgent phone call from the GP and apparently my sister had phoned him up and said I was not meeting

    my mums medical needs - I was so angry and the GP when I pointed out that I had taken mum to 30 appointments in the past 6 months , teeth, hearing, podiatrist, orthoptist, sight, GP, consultant, bloods , xray etc - and I said and you did the referrals- he apologised and said it sounds like it is a problems between you and your sister

    My sister has taken my mum to No appointments

    Anyway this goes on and on ... with nasty emails etc etc etc

    Then several weeks ago she arrived on one of her state visits unannounced , ignored me and started to say to mum - ' let's go out '


    ( they would disagree but I will give you some examples, )
  2. HelenC23

    HelenC23 Registered User

    Dec 1, 2018
    #2 HelenC23, Dec 1, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2018
    I explained that mum had a hair appointment in an hour - I asked her if she would like to take her and she said

    ' No ' twice

    So I said

    ' can you bring her back in half an hour at 1130 hrs because she has to leave then , she said


    She arrived back at 1600hrs and she just dumped mum at the front door and left , I was just going out ...

    I said ' you can't just leave mum like that ' ' you have to turn tv, lights etc on, make sure she is safe and comfortable and give her some food and drink . ... etc '

    She turned her back on me , walked to her car and gave me the finger !!

    So I did all the making sure mum was alright and missed my art class.

    Anyway my point is she lies about me , is cold and unkind towards my mum , although she would not recognise this in herself, she actively attacks me and spreads lies and venom about me

    To the point where I had chest spasms and had to have an ECG as an emergency and she mocked me for this ,

    via email saying

    I had a mental health problems due to my anxiety !!!! Well she is right about something she is toxic to my mental health !

    I have blocked her on all phone , email contact points etc and I do not talk to her, she now complains to everyone else who will listen that I do not share information about our mother, but even the GP won't talk to her now !

    Unfortunately her best buddie is the sibling who is exactly like her in different ways , I could tell you worst stuff about him

    He lives 300 miles away pops in to see my mum for maybe 90 mins every six months

    He bullied mum into giving him equal POA with me, when initially mum wanted him as replacement attorney , and me as main attorney - he refused to sign the forms

    He also rang up the solicitor and told her she did not know what she was doing etc etc.

    Bullied and harangued me and mum and proceeded to lobby for support from other siblings as to why he should be equal POA

    He also told the solicitor that my mum was unduly influenced by me and that my mother was lacking in capacity to make sure a decision

    When mum was like - beaten down ... she was like 'sigh... 'OK ok '

    All of a sudden she had capacity in his eyes and he started ringing up the solicitor and telling her to get on with it ,

    The solicitor told me he was a disgruntled sibling, when I related this back to my brother, he was very poe faced and incredulous and he did not believe me ( see lack of insight / reflective skills )

    So the solicitor NOW insisted on a capacity assessment , because my brother had accused her of taking instructions tions s from someone who lacked capacity

    Anyway I took mum to the consultant physician and he said she had capacity to decide who should be her POA

    But I did not want the fall out of doing good it by myself any more after the barrage of bullying I had received and the sleepless anxiety driven nights ..
  3. HelenC23

    HelenC23 Registered User

    Dec 1, 2018
    #3 HelenC23, Dec 1, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2018
    Part 3 , finally getting to the now !

    Thank you to those who have kindly shared my burden by reading this.

    My brother and I have POA but I have not registered it with the banks because living with mum, I took her shopping, to the banks and did telephone banking , WITH HER

    Have been doing this for a while and I do and did nothing without her consent

    My brother mean while who lives 300 miles away , decides to register POA at the banks and inform them that my mum has no capacity

    So they promptly cut off my mums access to her bank account and cancelled her cards and her telephone banking service

    He did not consult with me or my mum prior to doing this

    He is the only one that can access mums account now and even the statements are being sent to his house

    When I pointed out to him about capacity under the mental health act , he was having none of it ...

    He did not see the problem with what he had done, he said he was doing what he was meant to do as POA

    I pointed out about the 'best interest', principle - the concept went straight over his head

    He has not even tried to rectify this or apologise to my mum

    I feel heart broken for my mum that he has done this and so hurt

    He told me to stop wasting his time and said ' you just need to register POA and it will all be resolved

    I know I can do this but no way would I EVER allow the banks to cancel my mums cards unless she was unconscious etc

    She can use a cash point , aNd goes shopping with me all the time and puts her number into the debit machine

    I think he is cruel and unkind

    The bank will not reverse the decision , because the POA said my mother had no capacity and they took him at his word,

    I asked what evidence they had to ensure that assessment was correct and they said they did nt need it

    But apparently if I register as POA at the bank account and say my mum does have capacity then they will need evidence !

    I am complaining to the bank

    And I bet all my mums Direct debits

    will bounce this month because I doubt my brother is aware that mum puts 700 quid into her DD account each month via the current account via telephone banking - and she has been unable to do that this month

    I feel so upset so stressed and I can't cope with those nasty siblings and don't know how to protect myself from them

    Let alone mum ..

    The sad thing is that if they were on this forum now, they would tell you they were right.

    I do everything for my mum and want her to be happy and healthy but this is affecting g my health and thus my ability long term to be the best I can to care for her

    Any advice welcome xxx
  4. Shedrech

    Shedrech Volunteer Moderator

    Dec 15, 2012
    hello @HelenC23
    welcome to TP
    sadly it's not uncommon for siblings to deal with their parent in very different and divisive ways

    I assume you and your brother are Attorneys 'jointly and severally' or he would not be able to take action on his own
    personally, I would suggest you register your own Attorneyship with your mum's bank and therefore have the same access as he has and be able to deal with this amount that needs to be transferred
    if you believe your brother is acting inappropriately, you can contact the OPG and reprt your concern
  5. HelenC23

    HelenC23 Registered User

    Dec 1, 2018
    Thank you , I will and I want my mother to have access to her bank account to again, how dare the bank cut her off from her own money

    My brother acts inappropriately because he is selfish and inconsiderate and he is unable to act on the best interest principle

    I say this very deliberately , I do not think he has the capacity to do this due to his personality traits I have discussed earlier

    Is that enough to ask for his removal as an attorney ?
  6. Lynmax

    Lynmax Registered User

    Nov 1, 2016
    When my siblings and I registered the LPA with mums bank, we made it clear that mum still had some capacity to use her debit card and write cheques.. This was not a problem and we were able to gain access to all her accounts to protect her from being scammed again yet Mum still has use of her debit card and cheque book. All we have done is move surplus cash from her current account into her savings account to limit the amount she connected to her debit card. This was with Santander but I think other banks will do the same. As far as Mum is concerned, she does not know we are keeping an eye on her money as nothing has changed for her. The bank were so helpful, efficient and quick to process the paper work.

    I suggest you make your own appointments to the bank, take along a certified copy of the LPA or the original one and see what they say. Make an appointment first so that you speak to someone qualified to deal with LPA, it made such a difference to be able to deal with someone who knew the processes and she gave us some great advice. You should get copies of bank statements etc and also your own debit card for your mums account.

    I am so grateful that me and my siblings are very close and all support mum equally without tension, we have a Whatsapp group to keep in touch and use it daily. I feel sorry for all those people with difficult relationships with their siblings, I read on here of so many problems that causes.
  7. Grannie G

    Grannie G Volunteer Moderator

    Apr 3, 2006
    Surely this could have been discussed with the solicitor while the POA was being drawn up.

    I doubt it.

    You could always ask the solicitor.
  8. HelenC23

    HelenC23 Registered User

    Dec 1, 2018
    I did ask the solicitor when it was being drawn up but I was so beaten down , so was the solicitor and my mum by his manipulation and bullying

    I did ask the solicitor and actually attorneys have to demonstrate that the put the donor at the centre of all decisions and that have to demo strategy best interest principle and if two attorney s cannot work together apparently one can be removed
  9. HelenC23

    HelenC23 Registered User

    Dec 1, 2018
    #9 HelenC23, Dec 2, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2018
  10. canary

    canary Registered User

    Feb 25, 2014
    South coast
    We all sympathise with your predicament, but removing someone from POA is not easy and I dont think anyone wants to give you false hope.

    I think you will have to find a way to work around this issue. Im afraid that it is known on here that banks will freeze accounts if there is any sniff of cognitive issues and it can be difficult to reverse. Lynmax has given good advice
  11. Szaitisja

    Szaitisja Registered User

    Jul 28, 2018
    Is it not possible for the person to revoke POA if they still have capacity? I thought that is an option but I don't have any experiece of POAs in practice. Sorry if this is not terribly helpful but you did mention that your mum still has capacity and has been assessed as having it. I do of course realise that capacity can fluctuate
  12. Bod

    Bod Registered User

    Aug 30, 2013
  13. Beate

    Beate Registered User

    May 21, 2014
    This is all possible in theory, but in practice someone who let themselves be bullied by their own son into giving him joint POA is not going to do that for fear of recriminations. He should have never been given attorneyship, not even as a replacement. He could have then registered his objections with the OPG, but without a valid reason wouldn't have got far. Trying to remove him now without a good reason (fraud etc) will prove difficult.

    All you can do now is register your attorneyship as well (I'm guessing it's jointly and severally), and get the telephone banking details reinstated, or even better, Internet banking, which you can help your mother with.
  14. HelenC23

    HelenC23 Registered User

    Dec 1, 2018
    Thanks canary and Szaitisja granny beate and bod

    To be honest my brother and sister are one thing , I am upset by them and am working out how to manage them, I'm managing by cutting them off, due to their abuse

    I had nothing much to do with them since I was a teenager and left home , as they have never been very pleasant

    You raise a very interesting point though ....

    The bank is also at fault , and this capacity word

    What is capacity ? ( rhetorical question )

    Who judges capacity ? Again rhetorical

    Certainly not a bank or a family member in whose interest it is to present a ' No capacity ' scenerio

    Capacity is defined under the mental health act clearly in my opinion and capacity and consent go hand in hand

    Just because my mum has reduced capacity and a diagnosis of alzheimers that does not mean she has ' lost all capacity '

    In fact you would have to be able to not communicate at all and be in a coma to have lost capacity

    So the bank should NOT have denied mum access to her own money

    It is disgraceful, which is why I am complaining

    To cut mum off with no evidence that she has lost her capacity is outrageous

    As stated it is her money , she can still use the cashpoint and knows her card numbers and used telephone banking with my assistance

    It is the big H bank
  15. HelenC23

    HelenC23 Registered User

    Dec 1, 2018
    #15 HelenC23, Dec 2, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2018
    [QUOTE="Lynmax, post: 1590940, member: 62255"

    I am so grateful that me and my siblings are very close and all support mum equally without tension, we have a Whatsapp group to keep in touch and use it daily. I feel sorry for all those people with difficult relationships with their siblings, I read on here of so many problems that causes.[/QUOTE]

    You sound like you have a very lovely family and your mum is very lucky to have you all

    I am sad that my family is so dysfunctional , my brother and sister do nothing for my mum

    I do everything and help her with her finances and work full time , they do nothing and don't want to

    I think there are personality problems ie as expressed in my first post about the siblings I discussed , they cant work as a team , they have to have control, no empathy can't see context

    Which is why they are unable to help mum, they are unable to due to their personality traits

    My fourth sibling is not like that, nor am I but these personality / brain issues do run in my father's family
  16. Shedrech

    Shedrech Volunteer Moderator

    Dec 15, 2012
    hi @HelenC23
    the bank cannot assess the capacity of an account holder
    they effectively have to trust the Attorney who comes to them with a valid and registered LPA

    it seems that different banks have different policies on whether an account holder can still access their accounts once an LPA is registered with them

    when I went to dad's bank they made it clear that their policy is to only allow the Attorney access once the LPA is registered with them as they take it that taking that step means that the account holder is no longer has the capacity to manage their own affairs
    indeed when I was there a family came in with the idea of registering the LPA, both Attorney and account holder were present, they were warned about the policy and did not go ahead
    so people might not agree with the bank's policy but it is made clear at the appropriate time

    I have a co-Attorney who has not registered their LPA with dad's bank so has no access to his accounts yet they expect me to organise copies of statements etc, which greatly annoys me as the bank is in the same town where they work ....
  17. Sirena

    Sirena Registered User

    Feb 27, 2018
    As Shedrech says, the bank go on the say-so of the attorney who visits and registers the POA. When I registered the POA for my mother, the bank asked if I wanted her to continue accessing her funds and to retain her bank card and cheque book. I said yes, because she was able to withdraw cash when she went out with her carer. But equally I could have said no, and they would have gone with that and shut off her access. So while your brother has inconvenienced you and your mum, he hasn't done anything 'wrong'. The best option is to register your own POA so you can access and control her funds on a day to day basis.
  18. jenniferpa

    jenniferpa Volunteer Moderator

    Jun 27, 2006
    #18 jenniferpa, Dec 2, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2018
    I just want to warn you that absent malfeasance on the part of one attorney (and I'm not seeing that here) an attorney is very unlikely to be removed. If two attorneys cannot work together because of personality conflicts and the court was asked to decide they are more likely to revoke the LPA completely and appoint a panel deputy.

    You keep saying she has capacity, even if limited. I think you may have two problems here. It maybe that the bank in question (and yes they vary) takes the position that once the LPA has been invoked access by the account holder is not possible. The second issue is capacity. While it's true capacity can fluctuate, when it comes to a financial LPA unless the loss of capacity is written into the document (which is often is for health and welfare LPAs but not so frequently for financial ones) there is no formal assessment required. And I don't think you are doing yourself any favours by banging on about capacity. You need to do what others have told you to do - register your LPA with the bank and go from there.

    And I would strongly suggest that you do NOT raise any personality traits you have observed in your brother when dealing with the bank (unless you are a licensed professional who has the education to diagnose such traits). I say this because when you do, I'm afraid many people will view you as the problem. Sad but true. You can say you don't get along if you feel you need to (although I personally would not go even that far because it simply isn't necessary - you have an LPA and you want to register it. You don't need to justify yourself.)
  19. Beate

    Beate Registered User

    May 21, 2014
    The one pitfall I'd like to mention when registering your own attorneyship with the bank is that while they usually accept there can be more than one attorney, often they only want to have to deal with one person. They want one address to send bank statements to, and one person to have a debit card and/or cheque book for the account. If this is the case and they consider having done their duty with your brother, then all you could realistically do is set up Internet banking that could in theory be shared with your brother.
  20. Bod

    Bod Registered User

    Aug 30, 2013
    Her GP or Memory clinic would be the best people to decide if there is still capacity to understand her actions.
    Should she have capacity, then she will be able alter the POA.
    BUT, you will have to deal with the probably nasty fallout from the rest of the family.
    Capacity, is a very difficult thing to assess, it can change from day to day/hour to hour, and certainly with whose asking!


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