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How to persuade dad he needs to register LPA?

Discussion in 'Welcome and how to use Dementia Talking Point' started by emsie, Jul 1, 2018.

  1. emsie

    emsie New member

    Jul 1, 2018
    I've just joined Talking Point and have already been comforted by the comments I've read here. Glad I've signed up!

    My dad was diagnosed with mixed dementia diagnosis several months ago. He has Alzheimer's and Vascular dementia. He lives on his own.

    The family have been trying to persuade him to register a Power of Attorney but he is very reluctant and suspicious. My mum (separated but friends) has said she is going to register one for herself in the hope of persuading him but he still doesn't want to. He says he will know when the time comes for him to need care or when he needs someone to manage his money.

    It's really difficult to find the right balance between telling him how bad his condition could be by the time he needs a LPA in place and not causing him undue upset and anxiety. We, as a family have given him all the reasons that you read about online, but this doesn't persuade him because he says he will agree to help when the time comes.

    I feel that what we need is more detailed information about the sorts of things that could happen if someone doesn't have LPA in place when the time comes - but websites just don't give you any detail about that. You read that someone will have to apply to the Court of Protection but this is fairly meaningless to all of us. What we don't know is what problems will he and the rest of us actually experience day-to-day without LPA? I've heard that the bank will freeze his bank account, but I'm sure my dad would just say How would the bank get to know about his condition unless somebody tells them?

    Does anyone have a list of things that happen in a person's life when they lose mental capacity so that we can talk honestly with my dad about the future and why LPA is needed (in the kindest possible way, of course)?

    Many thanks.

  2. Beate

    Beate Registered User

    May 21, 2014
    #2 Beate, Jul 1, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2018
    You can't persuade someone with dementia to do anything they don't want to do or don't understand - they will not respond to logic. You could tell him all the horror stories under the sun and he might not agree. The only thing I can think of is stop going on about it but fill in the forms and print them out so all he'll have to do is sign them, and hope he will in an opportune moment.
  3. karaokePete

    karaokePete Registered User

    Jul 23, 2017
    N Ireland
  4. Duggies-girl

    Duggies-girl Registered User

    Sep 6, 2017
    I agree with Beate. Persuasion won't work with dementia. Stop talking about it with him and just get the papers ready. You may get lucky.
  5. Rosettastone57

    Rosettastone57 Registered User

    Oct 27, 2016
    I agree with Beate. If you wait for a person with dementia to agree with you or see your point of view you'll wait forever. With my MIL who has mixed dementia we knew she would never have agreed to anything we told her about LPA. She had long standing mental health problems over many years way before dementia took over. She never had any insight into her own mental health conditions. This is what we did for LPA...it may work for your dad.
    We used a trusted neighbour who was in agreement with us . For several weeks the neighbour would pop in with MIL and just talked about how she was getting POA with her family giving the idea that POA was going to be the norm and everyone has one. This took several weeks. Eventually we just filled in the forms ready for her to sign. We used the neighbour as certificate provider and eventually my MIL signed them. My MIL just didn't want to be seen as different to anyone else
  6. Amethyst59

    Amethyst59 Registered User

    Jul 3, 2017
    It was a different situation for us. We knew my husband had dementia, but didn’t have the official diagnosis, and he wanted to complete and register the POA. He wanted to know that he and I could carry on making the decisions without interference from anyone else. It helped that he knew our solicitor, who saw my husband alone, to make sure he understood what he was doing. There was no reluctance in my husband’s part to do it...because he trusted me as his attorney to carry out his wishes and include him in decisions for as long as possible. For my husband, he saw it as a way of RETAINING control, not losing it.
  7. jenniferpa

    jenniferpa Volunteer Moderator

    Jun 27, 2006
    While I agree that this can be a difficult step, I'm wondering if you are making him rather more nervous about it by talking about registering an LPA rather than just creating one? Now many people do create one and immediately register it, but it doesn't have to be like that. Perhaps approaching it more like - you make a will when you are alive but it doesn't come into force until you are dead, so you make an LPA now while you are still well and it gets registered when you need it. Admittedly holding off registration can mean a period of time when the attorney may not be able to access accounts, and if there is anything wrong with the LPA you won't know it until that point, but perhaps it might be the best way to approach it.

    If he does fail to get an LPA created and then loses capacity, someone will need to apply to the Court Of Protection to become a deputy. The cost will then be £400 which will come from his assets, assuming it hasn't risen by then. Also payable from his assets will be a bond (difficult to know how much that will be as it depends on circumstances). The time frame to get a deputyship is considerably longer than to register an LPA. No one is likely to be able to get a deputyship for health and welfare (they are rarely granted) so without a health and welfare LPA, his family may not have as many rights to make necessary H & W decisions for him. Re the bank: if he loses his card, forgets his pin too many times, fails to remember any necessary security questions to reset these things, the bank could quite possibly get suspicious. Whether they will lock his account is unknowable but they do have a duty to him to do so if he appears to have lost capacity.

    But I suspect that all of these things will go over his head. And in truth, many people do manage without having an LPA in place. Deputyship is more costly and more time consuming but is doable if he absolutely refuses to create LPAs.
  8. canary

    canary Registered User

    Feb 25, 2014
    South coast
    Having gone through Court of Protection for mum who adamantly refused POA, I told my OH that I never wanted to have to CoP again and I didnt want him to have to do it for me (;)), so we both needed to get POA sorted out "while we still had all our marbles". Because we both it done together and OH saw it as being to his advantage (so he wouldnt have to do CoP) he complied. We had to do it through a solicitor, though as otherwise he would have seen it as me telling him what to do.
  9. Sirena

    Sirena Registered User

    Feb 27, 2018
    I agree that it's unlikely he will listen to reason. You can give him as many good reasons as you like and he will dismiss them all because he isn't refusing for logical reasons. I suspect he just wants to retain a feeling of control.

    Unlikely he will accept this, but if it is about 'control' you could try pointing out that the fact the LPA has been registered does not mean you have to start using it, it is just there ready for when it's needed. Me and my OH did EPAs for each other 25 years ago, we've not yet needed to use them. And my mother's LPA was registered in 2012 and I only started using it in 2016. Better to have it ready and waiting rather than be scrambling around at a time of crisis.
  10. member74974

    member74974 Registered User

    Jun 30, 2018
    We did this some years ago, long before any problems were on the horizon. Two things prompted it: we had a friend whose mother hadn’t done anything, she went int hospital and then couldn’t possibly return to her own home - she had to go into residential care. Our friend was having financial problems at the time, and this burden, going to court etc caused him enormous grief. Sometime after this, my husband’s mother developed dementia. She hadn’t done anything. Thinking of our friend, we worried terribly. Then the geriatrician at the hospital said she must. So she started the process. Later on we had to put into action. That was emotionally so hard. We didn’t want our children to have to go through any of that. So long ago, we sorted it out.
  11. Duggies-girl

    Duggies-girl Registered User

    Sep 6, 2017
    Perhaps it would be an idea for an authoritive person to drop a suggestion like Greyhound owner said.
    No amount of me trying to convince my dad to stop driving would work but as soon as his doctor told him he stopped immediately. I admit I confiscated his car so he couldn't see it for a while but it worked.
    Has he any respected friends or old work colleagues that you could get to have a word with him. They could tell him that they have had it done and what a good idea it is and he may listen to someone else.
    It might be worth a try.
  12. Duggies-girl

    Duggies-girl Registered User

    Sep 6, 2017
    You have to turn it into his idea somehow.
  13. member74974

    member74974 Registered User

    Jun 30, 2018
    Another thought. It may not work in your case. My mother-in-law was very proficient at emotional blackmail. I swore never ever to use it. But I did on one occasion. When she really wasn’t very ill, If we went away she became ill and once my young daughter had to deal with an admission to hospital by a locum doctor. (Her own doctor would have treated it differently.).

    I couldn’t let that happen again. So I went to see her, “Poor (her son, my OH), he really needs a holiday, but he feels he can’t leave you unless some mature and proficient pops in. I don’t want him to get ill.” She agreed. (He’s an only child.). We hired someone to pop in daily. We could go away, my daughter didn’t have to cope with a difficult situation.

    Is there any way you could say you need to save someone (other than you) from real ( or for him, imaginary) worry?

    I know, this might be useless, but just in case it could help...
  14. emsie

    emsie New member

    Jul 1, 2018
    Thank you so much, all of you! I wasn't expecting so many people to respond! I have read and re-read all your posts and they've given me a good perspective on the situation as well as some good ideas to try out with my dad. I'm certainly hearing that it's horrendous for many carers and relatives when there isn't an LPA!

    Since writing, my mum has had a talk with him and been quite firm about the need for LPA and he has agreed to do it. He may change his mind, of course, but he does tend to listen to my mum.

    I just want to make sure that if he does create an LPA, he isn't left fretting over it and worrying about the control he has handed over. So I'm trying to gather as much info as I can about the protection it offers.

    So thank you all once again! It's very supportive to have read all your replies.

  15. ITBookworm

    ITBookworm Registered User

    Oct 26, 2011
    I wouldn't necessarily recommend it but.... you can include a clause in the LPA that says it only comes into effect after (a doctor or similar says that) the person has lost capacity. My parents did that. How I will get the confirmation if I ever need to use the LPA I don't know but I will worry about that if I ever need to use them.

    Basically Dad is a control freak so doing it that way meant no one could "interfere" unless they absolutely need to. Maybe having a clause like that will make your Dad more comfortable with the idea. The only drawback is that you then need to get whoever is specified to lack of capacity but better that than no LPA.
  16. Duggies-girl

    Duggies-girl Registered User

    Sep 6, 2017
    Hi Emsie My dad was quiet happy for me to do LPA for him and that was about four or five months ago. He has definately lost capacity now but I still haven't used it and I probably won't need to now.

    He still keeps his own debit card and everything else is paid by standing order so every couple of weeks or so I take him to a cash point and we get some money out. He keeps his money in his wallet and when we go shopping he pays and I pack. Seems to work.

    I am still glad that I have got it now especially the health and welfare LPA as dad has cancer and we may have to make some decisions in the near future but I will almost certainly go along with any advice from his consultant. It just means that I can speak for him when he doesn't understand the implications of what they are saying. Up to now I have not even had to say that I hold LPA and I have been to all of his appointments and all of the doctors including his GP have been happy with that, his GP and his hospital nurse always phone me if they need to because they know that dad will forget any calls instantly.
  17. canary

    canary Registered User

    Feb 25, 2014
    South coast
    Dont put a clause in saying that it only comes into effect once he has lost capacity if you can help it. Ive seen threads on here where it caused no end of problems. Doctors wont generally do this and getting a private doctor to say that they have indeed lost capacity can be very expensive and cause a lot of hassle.

    After OH (and I) signed the POAs I got them registered (because thats what has to be done ;)) and I put all correspondence relating to POAs away out of sight. I called it our "insurance policy" in case we become ill and said we didnt need to worry about it now. I think he has probably forgotten that he did the POA now
  18. Slugsta

    Slugsta Registered User

    When we did our EPAs, some years ago now, we were told that it would be vital if, for instance, my husband were to have an accident and be unable to manage how own affairs. We were 'young' and healthy, so the idea of dementia hadn't crossed our minds, but anyone can end up unconscious as the result of an accident.

    I wonder if this kind of approach might be helpful in situations where the PWD resists all suggestions that they might be unable to manage their own affairs in future?
  19. member74974

    member74974 Registered User

    Jun 30, 2018
    That’s so true. I know someone who found a flat for sale, but the partner of the seller had an accident and was unconscious. Everyone was in limbo.
  20. Spamar

    Spamar Registered User

    Oct 5, 2013
    We also did ours, EPA, well before problems. This was because fil got dementia and didn’t have one. Nightmare!
    Did an LPA health and finance when he was already ill, but still had capacity. All involved were neighbours and OH distinguished himself by eating a whole pack, minus two, of dark chocolate digestives!

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