How to get council to pay for my mum's care home - cancel direct debit?

[josephinewilson]

In March 2016 my mum went into a council run (Lancashire) dementia care home. It's very good - we are all happy with it. She was self funding and we were told when she goes below the 23K threshold to get in touch and they would set in motion the process for sharing contributions.

*In February this year I rang to say she was under 23k and they said they'd organise a social worker, etc
* I rang again in March, in April, in May.. each time being promised action but hearing nothing
*She was allocated a social worker in June but the woman left after a week and nobody replaced her so we were back to square one
*I rang in July to say she was soon below the 14K threshold for not paying ANYTHING and they apologised (again) and said they would get onto it
*I rang in August and was promised "urgent action"
*In September I rang and said she now has only 11K - if you don't sort something soon and she lives a few more months, she will have NO money left! They apologised again, said there was a delay with the "duty team" (although it shouldn't have been 7 months) but because she is already in a care home, she is deemed "safe" and so is less of a priority. They've assured me that at some point, I will get refunded. I also said if she dies tomorrow - will you refund the money and they said yes, from your first call in February.
I am very frustrated and annoyed that we are paying now when she is below the 14K threshold and it's been suggested I simply cancel the direct debit, and inform them by post with her up to date bank statement and a reminder of all my phone calls. That's rather drastic - is there normally such a delay? What would happen if I do this? Any other suggestions as to how to hurry things up?
Thanks!

 

[nitram]

Try a concise, factual email to the CEO of the LA.

Don't forget to ask for interest on the money she should not have paid, it won't be much but they would chase her for a small sum so why not do it in reverse.

 

[Pete R]

What a mess.

Have you spoken to the CH manager to see if they will wait wait for the LA to get their act together as they are obviously going to get the money at some stage. You could offer to pay at least any pension your Mum receives.

To hurry them along I would make a formal complaint. You should be able to do this online.

Was your Mum in receipt of AA?

:

 

[josephinewilson]

Thanks both - yes- I am off to the carehome now to talk it through with them. Also I will make the online complaint as suggested. Yes, my mother has the full AA (if you mean Attendance allowance) I made sure she got that when she went in.

 

[Pete R]

Yes, my mother has the full AA (if you mean Attendance allowance) I made sure she got that when she went in.

As your Mum is really LA funded then I suggest you give the AA office a ring to see whether that should be still be paid. May prevent having to sort out any refund.

 

[josephinewilson]

As your Mum is really LA funded then I suggest you give the AA office a ring to see whether that should be still be paid. May prevent having to sort out any refund.

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Sorry I don't understand - I know the AA gets swallowed up when the council start paying in full for her care home fees but I don't want to cancel that until I have got the council to pay in full for her care home fees - or she will have even less to pay with! As a self funder she is currently entitled to the Attendance allowance, so I have been told.

I have this morning been to the care home who are ringing up on my behalf to see if they can hurry things up.

 

[Saffie]

As you will have excess money repaid - taking into account that pensions are paid when the LA becomes involved with paying for a care home so not all will be refunded - so the repayment of AA will be necessary a this comes from a different source.

 

[Pete R]

Sorry I don't understand - I know the AA gets swallowed up when the council start paying in full for her care home fees but I don't want to cancel that until I have got the council to pay in full for her care home fees - or she will have even less to pay with! As a self funder she is currently entitled to the Attendance allowance, so I have been told.

I have this morning been to the care home who are ringing up on my behalf to see if they can hurry things up.

AA stops when the LA take over funding. I do not believe the LA then get the AA paid to them. Unless there is something very wrong the LA will back date their payments to the day your Mum became eligible. Whether they pay your Mum back or pay it all to the CH is anyone's guess. The DWP will then want their AA back from your Mum & I doubt they will chase anyone else.

I do not known a definite answer that is why I suggested a phone call.

 

[josephinewilson]

Update

Just an update on the situation:
I complained to the council and this morning I received a letter saying that I should expect to have some action on this within 20 days (and to let them know if I don't)
I will call the DWP about my mother's attendance allowance on Monday. I can at least cancel it for now and once I get the financial assessment we can sort out what has to be repaid.
I hope to be able to reply back here again within 20 days that I have a result - and not reply with another moan.. we shall see.

 

[Pete R]

I hope to be able to reply back here again within 20 days that I have a result

I hope you can too, however........

 

[josephinewilson]

Thanks for the Heads up about the Attendance Allowance, which they have now suspended, so there will be less to pay back.If I don't get any further after 20 days, I think I will cancel the direct debit and see what happens when the cat is put amongst the pigeons....

 

[josephinewilson]

So three months on ...
After complaining twice and finally getting someone to visit my mother's care home at the start of October for the social services assessment, I then had to pester them for another two months to organise the financial assesment. In the end I got so fed up of waiting that in November I packaged up her bank statements and sent a letter saying if they didn't organise a financial assessment I would cancel the direct debit.
I didn't actually hear anything from them but then discovered the payment for November had been refunded back to me/her. I then cancelled the direct debit anyway and have had several letters and a phone call saying my mother was behind in payments. I just explained what was going on - of course, the finance department are not in touch with other departments.
Finally last week I got a letter saying I will be visited on the 22nd of December for a financial assessment and I have got a whole load of paperwork to get ready for then.

Question 1: It says in the paperwork I have to provide the last 2 years of bank statements. I can, of course, but shouldn't it just be statements since she went below 23 thousand? She entered the care home March 2015 and went below 23 thousand in February of this year.

Question 2: how much of her money are we allowed to spend on her behalf a (with POA) before they class it as "deliberate deprivation of assets"? My mother has always given her four grandchildre and two children a hundred pounds for birthdays, Christmas and important Life Events. I saw no reason to stop that when I took over her accounts. Are they going to say I shouldn't have taken anything out?

 

[Shedrech]

hi Josephine
it's quite usual to ask to see evidence of previous finances - the LA will want to assure themselves that finances have been dealt with sensibly (eg someone could 'hide' 50,000 a few months before declaring that they have no savings left) and to see what regular expenses have been outgoing

as to the gifts - if I add up correctly, that adds up to £1200 a year, which is not a lot if someone has a high income and hefty savings, but eg on a state pension and with savings at the limit of £23250, it's a pretty substantial proportion of assets; that's what has to be taken into account

 

[jenniferpa]

Hi Josephine. I don't know whether or not the la will consider the gifts out of line, but the good news is even if they do, you won't be expected to pay them back in cash. What will happen is that they will assume those amounts are still there (nominal capital) and thus your mother would have to pay the tariff income on that amount and her lower asset limit would be reduced accordingly.

I personally would politely but firmly make the point that these gifts were 1) in line with your mother's expressed wishes and 2) if they had sorted out the financial assessment when you requested, you would have been told then that this wasn't acceptable so it's a lot their fault.

Best of luck.

 

[Pete R]

Q1. The LA can go back as far as they want if they think things are not right. If there was no significant drop to cause her savings to fall to the upper threshold then all should be OK.

Q2. Your Mother is allowed to keep the £14,250 of the lower threshold. She can spend this whenever and on whatever she wishes, except on care. So you can use that to carry on the gifting if you think she would have wanted it. However that money has to last for the rest of her life and there may be other expenses that crop up over the years.

 

[Pete R]

.......and 2) if they had sorted out the financial assessment when you requested, you would have been told then that this wasn't acceptable so it's a lot their fault.

I am not so sure ignorance of the rules/law can ever be used as an excuse.

 

[jenniferpa]

I am not so sure ignorance of the rules/law can ever be used as an excuse.

I totally agree with you.

The thing is though, this isn't about rules or laws. This is how this specific la may choose to interpret something. Something more over that they are explicitly permitted under the legislation to make a judgement call about. For all we know, the la may not have an issue with this.

 

[josephinewilson]

(Sigh) Surely the idea of POA is that you act on behalf of the person in accordance with what they would wish? And I KNOW my mother would wish her gifts of money to continue being given to her children and grandchildren (for example). Well, perhaps it will be OK; we'll see.

 

[Beate]

(Sigh) Surely the idea of POA is that you act on behalf of the person in accordance with what they would wish? And I KNOW my mother would wish her gifts of money to continue being given to her children and grandchildren (for example). Well, perhaps it will be OK; we'll see.

Only if those wishes are reasonable. If someone for example gave thousands away each year to family and/or charities but now they require this money to pay for care, then no, those wishes can't just continue in the accustomed manner. An attorney has to act in the donor's best interests, which isn't always the same as their wishes (or no one would ever go into a care home for example).

 

[jaymor]

(Sigh) Surely the idea of POA is that you act on behalf of the person in accordance with what they would wish? And I KNOW my mother would wish her gifts of money to continue being given to her children and grandchildren (for example). Well, perhaps it will be OK; we'll see.

Having POA requires you to handle the finances in their best interests not necessarily as they wish. It would be lovely if we could but giving it away when it is needed for their future care is not in their best interests. I am sure that everyone involved will understand that Grandma now needs her funds to make life as pleasant and comfortable as it can be.