1. Expert Q&A: Protecting a person with dementia from financial abuse - Weds 26 June, 3:30-4:30 pm

    Financial abuse can have serious consequences for a person with dementia. Find out how to protect a person with dementia from financial abuse.

    Sam, our Knowledge Officer (Legal and Welfare Rights) is our expert on this topic. She will be here to answer your questions on Wednesday 26 June between 3:30 - 4:30 pm.

    You can either post questions >here< or email them to us at talkingpoint@alzheimers.org.uk and we'll answer as many as we can on the day.

  1. taylorcat

    taylorcat Registered User

    Jun 18, 2006
    171
    W.Scotland
    Don't know if anybody can help me here, possibly only give opinions.

    My dad and I constantly clash over the care of my mum.

    My mum should attend a day care centre twice a week to give my dad a break. More often than not I call to see if she has got off to the club alright and dad tells me he didn't let her go because her back is sore, either that or she doesn't want to get up so early in the morning for the bus to pick her up. He then wants me at some point later in the day, when she gets up, to take her out somewhere. I do what I can but object to taking mum out when she could have gone to her club.

    My dad will not be forceful whatsoever with her and if she says she doesn't want to go and starts to cry, saying he's out enjoying himself when she has to go to her club, then he says she doesn't have to go.

    The CPN came to see her yesterday and because she was upset and told him "she wanted away from my dad" again, today he tells me she's not going to her club because she was upset yesterday and he'll let her calm down and her back's sore.

    I am at the end of my tether with all this fighting and on the verge of completely giving up and letting him deal with it.

    Phoned him back a few times this morning and he puts the phone down on me not before telling me that he doesn't care who he upsets or who he's cheeky to as long as mum's alright.

    I know there's no right or wrong but what do I do. I've really had enough of it. I'm sure he has too but any ideas would help.

    I just don't think he's handling this well at all and when I don't agree another fight starts.
     
  2. BeckyJan

    BeckyJan Registered User

    Nov 28, 2005
    18,972
    Derbyshire
    This area you mention is one of the worst aspects of Alz. 2/3 yrs ago when all this started for me I was advised, by sensible people who had been through it themselves, that a gently gently attitude was best (diddums do it then). I have adopted this and there has never been an argument between us - just gentle persuasion.

    David hates going to the day centre. I dread the hour before he is due to go - but usually I say it helps me if he goes and we can enjoy talking about it when he gets home. That generally does the trick.

    I do not think you can argue with your Dad - whether you are right or not. Can you persuade him that they will appreciate each other alot more if she meets other people and he has a break.

    I do think you should point out to your Dad if she is not fit to go to Day Centre -IS SHE FIT ENOUGH for you to take her out. It is exactly the same with David - if he doesn't go to Centre he wants me to take him out (I have sometimes been stubborn about this. Could you suggest taking Mum, and maybe Dad also, on a different day to Day Centre - then you are showing willing.

    I make this sound so easy but I truly know it is not.

    Try not to let it get to you - this bl.... disease does that it you let it.
    Best wishes Beckyjan
     
  3. taylorcat

    taylorcat Registered User

    Jun 18, 2006
    171
    W.Scotland
    Beckyjan, thanks it does make a difference to know someone is listening. I've been so upset all morning. Given up phoning him as he puts the phone down.

    I offered to my dad this morning to come and take her to the day centre thinking that if i went and took her and she started to tell me she didnt want to go i could be a bit firmer than him.

    This still doesn't work. You are right in taking softly, softly approach but i'm afraid my dad still lets my mum make decisions. Which, sorry to say, she can't do anymore.

    He just won't insist she does absolutely anything she protests about and I think this is very wrong and I'm not prepared to go along with it.

    She doesn't want to go to the day centre - she doesn't go.
    She doesn't want to get up in the morning - she lies in bed until 1pm.

    Sorry getting into a rant but I just feel like giving up.
     
  4. Grannie G

    Grannie G Volunteer Moderator

    Apr 3, 2006
    68,721
    Kent
    taylorcat, I`m sorry you are caught between what you think`s best for your Parents, and what they expect from you.

    What time does your Mother have to get up, to get ready for the day care centre? The reason I ask is because I`m finding it more and more difficult to get my husband to early appointments. Firstly because he goes to bed late, so is tired in the morning [he seems to get 2nd wind after 10pm and I can`t get him to bed] and secondly because he is so much slower at getting himself ready. It takes him ages to wash, shave and get dressed, and then longer again to have breakfast.I don`t help him as he is still able to do these things unaided, but I can`t hurry him because it isn`t right, and he only becomes more confused.

    Like BeckyJan, I try not to put him under pressure, as that causes more problems. He had a 10.15am appointment today for the Chiropodist. Last night I told him he HAD to come to bed, otherwise he wouldn`t be able to get up in time, and for the first time in ages, he was really resentful, told me I was too bossy and treated him like a child, always telling him what to do.

    It`s very difficult for you, but it`s even more difficult for your Dad, as he has to live with it 24/7. I know you want him to have a break, but often the timimg is wrong, and the boat is missed.

    I have recently found out that my husband hates the thought of me going out without him. It seems he is terrified of me having an accident, as he wouldn`t know what to do by himself. There might be something of this with your Mother. Perhaps she has a reason to resist separation from your Dad.

    You are within your rights to refuse to take your Mother out, if she`s missed the opportunity to go to the day care centre, but does it have to result in an arguement. Couldn`t you say you`ve already made plans for the day, or something like that.

    One lesson I`ve learned with AD, is that it`s very difficult to plan for the next 5 minutes, never mind the next day. Another thing I`ve learned is it`s easier to agree than disagree.

    I hope things improve for you. Take care.. Sylvia
     
  5. taylorcat

    taylorcat Registered User

    Jun 18, 2006
    171
    W.Scotland
    Sylvia, the bus arrives around 10.15am so I suppose she would have to be up around 9ish. My dad was offered help with someone coming in 2 mornings a week to get her up and ready for the bus coming but he cancelled it because he said she would have to get up at 8.30 and that's too early.

    The reason my mum doesn't want to go is because she says my dad is out enjoying himself when she has to go to this club.

    At one time she said he was bringing some woman into the house and that's why he wanted her to go to the club.

    I don't think it really matters what my mum believes anymore. It is my dad who should be taking care of himself and as long as my mum is getting what she wants he puts up with it.

    Yes, I could and should have said I was doing something else instead of just saying no I'm not doing it but it's happened so many times in the past that I just lost it and flew off the handle.
     
  6. BeckyJan

    BeckyJan Registered User

    Nov 28, 2005
    18,972
    Derbyshire
    Don't torture yourself for flying off the handle! We are all normal and we all do it sometime. I now go and let off steam in the garden or rant at something. Take care and hope things improve soon for you (they do seem to have a habit of sorting out - then another problem to face). We are all on this learning curve together.
    Best wishes Beckyjan
     
  7. Helena

    Helena Registered User

    May 24, 2006
    715
    Firstly being totally selfish with no thought for others is the earliest symptom of AD
    Your Mother by her devious behaviour is controlling your Father and getting exactly what she wants

    Your Father sadly cannot or will not see the incredible manipulation AD or VD patients are capable of

    They are like spoilt children who throw paddys and hit out physically or verbally at whoever dares to challenge their warped view of the world

    You have your own life to lead just as your Father does and being run ragged by your parents demands will only damage your own health

    Som sadly you need to take a firm stand and say no ....sorry you will do what you can when you can but not on demand and definitely not because your Father does not make her go to the Day Centre

    You will have to be cruel to be kind
     
  8. Amy

    Amy Registered User

    Jan 4, 2006
    3,453
    Hiya Taylorcat,
    Maybe that is part of the problem, because it sounds as though your dad still wants to keep mum happy and accomodate her wishes. I know that the first time we tried daycare it didn't work for mum, and we had to leave it till she had deteriorated further.
    It is very difficult being a son/ daughter - we can see what we think is best for our parents, but they seem determined to do their own thing. My view is that we have to stand back and say, 'OK, you decide, you are in control of your life; this is the support that I am able to give though.' So if dad doesn't want to make mum go to the daycentre yet, OK. Look at what time you can give to help them, and offer that. In his own time he will accept help, he will have no choice.
    Times of anger and fall out are allowed - they happen to us all - as adults we have conflicting opinions. They only become a problem if they are allowed to continue. In your position now I would phone dad and say ' I love you, we need to sit down and sort out a way forward, when we have both had time to calm down. Things will be OK dad.' With your mum ill, your dad's world is collapsing around him. He will be struggling to hang on to the past, denying that things are going to get any worse - he may not acknowledge it, but he needs you.
    Take care. Try and put it to one side in your mind, and enjoy the sunshine!
    Love Helen
     
  9. taylorcat

    taylorcat Registered User

    Jun 18, 2006
    171
    W.Scotland
    Thank you all for your kind responses.

    I am typing this with tears running down my face. My dad is a very stubborn man. Just tried phoning him again there and once again he slammed the phone down.

    Helena, the thing is my mum is not in the early stages. I would say maybe somewhere between 5 and 6.

    Thanks again.
     
  10. Helena

    Helena Registered User

    May 24, 2006
    715
    I am fully aware your Mother is not in the early stages

    The selfish manipulative behaviour runs right through

    My Mother 90 has VD aqnd lurches between stage 2 and stage 6 even 7 some days and she insists on living alone and refuses to recognise her condition

    Tough Love is the only way through the hell .............your Father has got to learn that
     
  11. Helena

    Helena Registered User

    May 24, 2006
    715
    I am fully aware your Mother is not in the early stages

    The selfish manipulative behaviour runs right through

    My Mother 90 has VD and lurches between stage 2 and stage 6 even 7 some days and she insists on living alone and refuses to recognise her condition

    Tough Love is the only way through the hell .............your Father has got to learn that
     
  12. Grannie G

    Grannie G Volunteer Moderator

    Apr 3, 2006
    68,721
    Kent
    There is no solution to your problem, taylorcat, just like there`s no cure for AD.

    All the advice you have been receiving is from people who have shed the tears, been angry one minute and heartbroken the next, and just try to do the best they can at the time.

    Just come to TP to let off steam. We are all with you. Love Sylvia
     
  13. jenniferpa

    jenniferpa Volunteer Moderator

    Jun 27, 2006
    39,419
    Taylorcat,

    I've thought for a long time before responding to this thread, because I'm not, nor likely to be, in your shoes - my mother has had several strokes, not Alzheimers. However, here's my tuppence, for what it's worth.

    Firstly, while some might characterise your mother's behaviour as devious and manipulative, the fact of the matter is that her unwillingness to cooperate is likely to be based on fear: fear of what might go on at her house when she's not there, fear of what might happen at day care, just generalized fear. To be manipulative, there has to be a concious assessment of "If I do A, B will happen, and then I'll get C". I doubt, from what you say, she is capable of that much forethought. At some level, she probably retains an awareness that for most of her life, she was in control of her own activities and now to be expected to follow instructions like a small child is going to be almost impossible, especially as she has probably lost the concept of "doing things for someone elses benefit". (Note all the probablys in that sentence).

    Your father, on the other hand, is probably running his own cost/benefit analysis - is the benefit (some time away from caring) worth the cost (the hassle of getting her out the door, and the recriminations afterwards). At the moment, the costs have the upperhand. He recognises that he needs the benefit, otherwise he wouldn't ask you to take your mother out.

    Trying to see it from both sides (and getting cross-eyed as a result), I can see why you are resentful that he's asking you to take up the slack when he won't push her to go to day care. From his point of view, I can see why he is resentful that you won't take her out when the other option (going to day care) is so fraught with difficulty as to make it essentially impossible. As to the getting up, I'm not sure why it is important (apart from the daycare issue) that she does get up at a "normal" time. They're probably having disturbed nights, she quite possibly is more "together" later on, and he may well appreciate being able to "potter" around the house before she rises. When she's sleeping, he doesn't have to worry whats happening to her.

    I suppose what I'm trying to say is that simply because an option exists, in this case daycare, doesn't ACTUALLY make it an option if the difficulties in availing yourself of the option are too great. As Helen said, perhaps daycare is not a good idea for your mother at this time.

    If your father won't talk to you on the phone, perhaps it's time for a letter - it's a lot easier to be rational and unemotional on paper. While absolutely not an advocate for sacrificing yourself on the altar of parental expectations, would it be possible for you to set up a specific day(s) and time to take your Mother out each week, rather than having it sprung on you this way? Personally, it would be easier for me to have a standing arrangement, but that might just be me.

    If your father has decided to cut himself off from you for a while, so be it. An occasional phone call, even if he puts the phone down when he hears your voice, or even a card, will let him know you haven't cut yourself off from THEM.

    Jennifer
     
  14. Brucie

    Brucie Registered User

    Jan 31, 2004
    12,413
    near London
    As always, you talk great sense.

    I think some folks find it easier to demonise the patient than the disease, their being more tangible, and the 'front' for the disease.

    It may be that it is too painful to understand the reality of the life of the person with dementia, an inability to empathise, or it may be that there was a history of behavioural stuff prior to the dementia kicking in.

    I never judge the patient as they are now, but then I have been blessed in having Jan, so perhaps I simply don't understand!

    all together now: these are simply my views
     
  15. BeckyJan

    BeckyJan Registered User

    Nov 28, 2005
    18,972
    Derbyshire
    [when the other option (going to day care) is so fraught with difficulty as to make it essentially impossible. As to the getting up, I'm not sure why it is important (apart from the daycare issue) that she does get up at a "normal" time. They're probably having disturbed nights, she quite possibly is more "together" later on, and he may well appreciate being able to "potter" around the house before she rises. When she's sleeping, he doesn't have to worry whats happening to her.]

    Jennifer has got this so right. My quote from her post states so much what I have felt and feel regularly. I do know how your Father feels - please dont give up on him as he must be going through hell. He does need you but probably doesn't realise it yet. It is a wretched disease which plays havoc with feelings and emotions. Hope you can overcome the difficulties. Best wishes Beckyjan
     
  16. daughter

    daughter Registered User

    Mar 16, 2005
    824
    Hi taylorcat,

    I believe that Jennifer and others have pretty much said it all, but just to let you know how it was for us:

    I remember my Mum having to tell Dad he was going to the day centre at the very last minute, when the car turned up for him, just in case he refused to go. She would then make the conversation light and "oh, here's xxxx to take you out" and Dad would usually comply. In my view I do not believe Dad was being devious or manipulative when he resisted, he was just unable to understand why he was going off somewhere on his own.

    The fact is though, it took Mum a long time to learn how to coerce Dad without appearing to bully, it's so much easier to give in to someone we love.

    Perhaps your Dad has this problem - he may feel, out of loyalty, that he should tell your Mum in advance that she is going to day centre - but of course this just gives her time to decide she doesn't want to go. He may also feel bad about 'jollying' her along, when part of him doesn't really want her to go either. Mum was like this too - naturally part of her was still clinging on to the hope that Dad didn't have to go - but yet another part of her (self-survival) knew she had to have some kind of break from him. Your feeling of giving up is probably not far from the feeling that your Dad has at times, yet obviously none of us really can.

    I also know that from your side (son/daughter) it is very, very tricky knowing when to step in and when not. Not only for their sakes but for ours too.

    For instance, I had been visiting Dad in his Home (with Mum) for two or three times a week but then I went through a stage when I found I just couldn't visit for many (mostly emotional) reasons. I felt bad but I knew I had to cut down on my comittment - once I'd decided in my own mind that this is what I would do (and made myself unavailable for a while) I can now visit again, albeit less frequently. We can only do what we can do.

    Try not to be so hard on yourself, taylorcat, your Dad will come round, give him (and yourself) some time and then set your visit rules, as Jennifer suggests:
    Best wishes,
     
  17. Lila13

    Lila13 Registered User

    Feb 24, 2006
    1,342
    Lots of people tried to persuade my mother to go to day centres etc., but if she didn't want to go she didn't want to go, and that was it. The only places she was taken to without her consent were hospitals, and that was when she was too dehydrated to resist. I wonder how the people who run the centres cope with unwilling coerced (or deceived jollied-along) attenders.

    When other people talk about taking or putting their loved ones anywhere, or making them go, I think they must be so different from mine.

    Lila
     
  18. jenniferpa

    jenniferpa Volunteer Moderator

    Jun 27, 2006
    39,419
    I think this is what it comes down to - if you've always been strong-willed, or known your own mind, why would anyone expect you to suddenly become meek and tractable simply because you've got AD? If anything, I would think it would exacerbate these kinds of traits (or actually, any others).

    Jennifer
     
  19. daughter

    daughter Registered User

    Mar 16, 2005
    824
    Hi Lila,

    Yes different in every case - and I believe it's different when there are two parent's health and welfare to consider.

    When Mum was starting to make herself ill and Dad was being abusive and threatening, a day centre and occassional trips out for Mum were the only ways we knew to give her some respite. My thinking was if something helps to aleviate a little of the stress for Mum, that must help my Dad too.

    When Dad got to his day centre he would often have a good time anyway, but of course they aren't going to suit everyone and I appreciate not everyone can be encouraged to go.

    We're all different but also surely just trying to do our best in our own individual difficult situations.
     
  20. Grannie G

    Grannie G Volunteer Moderator

    Apr 3, 2006
    68,721
    Kent
    To take this discussion further.

    When my mother had AD and was receiving day care, she was up and dressed and sitting in her porch, waiting for the transport, at 7.30 every morning. Unfortunately, this included Saturday and Sunday.

    Mother was widowed and I was working full time, so I could only see her before and after work, and at weekends. Because there was no-one at home for her, she must have been delighted to go to day care.

    Admitted, I don`t know what stage she was at then. I didn`t know much about stages, until recently.

    When the time came when she didn`t know her own home, or why the transport had taken her there, that was the time she went into a Nursing Home.

    I know this is anecdotal, but it illustrates what we all know. There is a difference caring for parents, or caring for partners, and no two AD sufferers are the same.

    Meanwhile, we go on holiday on Monday. I hope we make it, as my husband is so confused. He has been asking all week, where we are going, what time we are going, how will we get there, what time will we get there, when are we coming back, what time will we be home, over and over again, all day and most of the evening. This morning, because he was cross with me for getting him up early, he said holidays are a waste of time and he doesn`t want to go anyway.

    All the best, Sylvia
     

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