Help Please

[Wolfsgirl]

Had to re post this as I feel so desperate for feedback - sorry

Hi just got in from seeing Mum who is a bit brighter looking but I now have another heartbreaking dilemma.

The doctor recently said Mum is likely to live for days or possibly a couple of weeks the way she was going on. The carer said Mum had capacity to make choices and they would not force her to eat or drink.

Just before we left visiting today, a nurse came along and asked if they could put Mum's meds, anti depressant and liquid paracetamol into yogurts and soups etc. I said well she is refusing to eat so perhaps not a good idea and suggested patches may help instead. The nurse told me she had fed Mum some soup at lunchtime and porridge for breakfast.

Anyway then what upset me was how she crushed tablets into the liquid paracetamol and then knelt down in front of Mum and insisted she take each of the 3 desert spoons. I was quite appalled! Poor Mum did not want it and was looking so distressed! If I had not been there to give Mum sips of water in between I don't think she would have been able to wash the taste away!!!!!

My issues are they will be making her food (which she will not be able to refuse from this particular nurse) taste absolutely horrible. I suggested patches for her meds instead which I heard about on here. Mum isn't fit or strong enough to fight against this like she must want to and I am now so choked. The nurse herself is huge and although is probably being cruel to be kind it just seems so wrong.

Mum is sipping water voluntarily which is an improvement so must surely become more hydrated.

Another question I need to ask is why if they want to feed her now even if she refuses, why didn't they do it before she became emaciated??? Poor Mum complains of feeling sick! I now have visions of her being forced to swallow foul tasting yoghurts by this nurse.

When she moved away, I spoke to her and asked if she knew what the gp had predicted - the nurse said gps can get it wrong and Mum could go on for years.

My husband and I had a difference of opinion on the way home, he said it is for Mum's own good and she could well get better. To me this is the wrong way to do it.

I am going to call the gp and ring the home tomorrow to state I want gp advice and not to do anything until then. I will really appreciate your thoughts,advice and opinions.

Thank you in advance

 

[2jays]

I'm so sorry I don't think I've any advice that's useful to you

I do know that sometimes meds are "hidden" in food. But I too would be upset at the approach you witnessed. Even if it was being "cruel to be kind"

Hopefully others with experience of this situation will be along as soon as they are able

Thinking of you xx

 

[Wolfsgirl]

Thank you for your understanding 2jays - I feel freshly heartbroken! x

I'm so sorry I don't think I've any advice that's useful to you

I do know that sometimes meds are "hidden" in food. But I too would be upset at the approach you witnessed. Even if it was being "cruel to be kind"

Hopefully others with experience of this situation will be along as soon as they are able

Thinking of you xx

 

[Wolfsgirl]

Kassy thank you I just feel so lacking in confidence and knowing what is the right thing to do!

Oh,this is so wrong,you must be so upset. No one should be forcing medication into your poor mum. Can you see the manager of the home? I'm angry and upset on your behalf. Thinking of you.

 

[ddurbridge74]

Had to re post this as I feel so desperate for feedback - sorry

Hi just got in from seeing Mum who is a bit brighter looking but I now have another heartbreaking dilemma.

The doctor recently said Mum is likely to live for days or possibly a couple of weeks the way she was going on. The carer said Mum had capacity to make choices and they would not force her to eat or drink.

Just before we left visiting today, a nurse came along and asked if they could put Mum's meds, anti depressant and liquid paracetamol into yogurts and soups etc. I said well she is refusing to eat so perhaps not a good idea and suggested patches may help instead. The nurse told me she had fed Mum some soup at lunchtime and porridge for breakfast.

Anyway then what upset me was how she crushed tablets into the liquid paracetamol and then knelt down in front of Mum and insisted she take each of the 3 desert spoons. I was quite appalled! Poor Mum did not want it and was looking so distressed! If I had not been there to give Mum sips of water in between I don't think she would have been able to wash the taste away!!!!!

My issues are they will be making her food (which she will not be able to refuse from this particular nurse) taste absolutely horrible. I suggested patches for her meds instead which I heard about on here. Mum isn't fit or strong enough to fight against this like she must want to and I am now so choked. The nurse herself is huge and although is probably being cruel to be kind it just seems so wrong.

Mum is sipping water voluntarily which is an improvement so must surely become more hydrated.

Another question I need to ask is why if they want to feed her now even if she refuses, why didn't they do it before she became emaciated??? Poor Mum complains of feeling sick! I now have visions of her being forced to swallow foul tasting yoghurts by this nurse.

When she moved away, I spoke to her and asked if she knew what the gp had predicted - the nurse said gps can get it wrong and Mum could go on for years.

My husband and I had a difference of opinion on the way home, he said it is for Mum's own good and she could well get better. To me this is the wrong way to do it.

I am going to call the gp and ring the home tomorrow to state I want gp advice and not to do anything until then. I will really appreciate your thoughts,advice and opinions.

Thank you in advance

to feed ur mum against her will or give meds is a very tricky situation. i know i could have been prosecuted for doing theright things for my dad. however i had his g.p do a mental capacity check done this year. now we are safe to administer meds. put him in respite . you need to know if a mental capacity check has been done. i hope i may have been of some help.

 

[Wolfsgirl]

You kind of think the nurses (Mum used to be a nurse) must know better than you but perhaps I am getting cynical - why are they suddenly at pains to keep Mum alive seemingly against her will! Keeping her employed (maybe I am getting paranoid)!

Question though - is this 'force feeding' ?

x

i have been in a similar situation,i was lacking in confidence,but i found the strength to be my mum's voice. Its hard,i do understand how you feel,but it is wrong to be force fed anything.x

 

[Wolfsgirl]

Mental capacity check is a fab idea - thank you x

to feed ur mum against her will or give meds is a very tricky situation. i know i could have been prosecuted for doing theright things for my dad. however i had his g.p do a mental capacity check done this year. now we are safe to administer meds. put him in respite . you need to know if a mental capacity check has been done. i hope i may have been of some help.

 

[FifiMo]

I would go a step further about this and would now query whether this is in fact the reason your mum stopped eating food in the first place! If, all of a sudden your food tastes vile and you don't have the capacity to work out why that might be, then the simple thing to do is to refuse to eat it!

There are regulations governing the use of covert medicating. What that nurse did wasn't covert medication it was forced administration of drugs. Not only forced but delivered in an intimidating fashion, against your mum's wishes and which caused her immeasurable distress!

Then there is the question as to whether the drugs that she crushed up were suitable for administration in this manner.

She clearly ignored your wishes, based on what you considered to be the best interests of your mother.

I don't think this is something which just needs a phone call to the GP. By all means contact the GP but advise the GP that you are also following this up in writing as you have absolutely no faith in how your mum is being treated in this home in your absence. i would write to the Manager of the home on all the points above and I would copy it to the GP too. If you don't get a response to your satisfaction then forward your letter to the CQC and the safeguarding unit of the Social Services in your area.

Fiona

 

[Wolfsgirl]

Regardless of what the food would taste like this nurse is relentless. She looked so upset after the first mouthful and pulled a face of disgust. She then had two more to endure - they seemed huge to me! But this was 'just' medication she does not want and not food which would be diluted and perhaps bulkier...

The food shouldn't taste awful. Does your mum seem in any distress when being fed?

 

[BeckyJan]

Just a thought - is there any chance the medication can be prescribed in liquid form? It might then be more acceptable and could be administered via a syringe. Well worth a call to the GP.

 

[Wolfsgirl]

[Yes thank you will definitely ask about this x

QUOTE=BeckyJan;929898]Just a thought - is there any chance the medication can be prescribed in liquid form? It might then be more acceptable and could be administered via a syringe. Well worth a call to the GP.[/QUOTE]

 

[Wolfsgirl]

This is what I emailed:

Re Mary Pauline O'Leary DOB 1/4/1928

The GP recently said Mum is likely to live for days or possibly a couple of weeks the way she was going on. A few days ago the head carer said Mum had capacity to make choices and they would not force her to eat or drink. Mum was saying 'don't feed me I am not a child' or 'I don't want it' or 'I feel sick' etc. She is able to put food or drink into her mouth if she wishes and does not lack this ability, she just lacks the desire.

Just before I left visiting yesterday, a nurse came along and asked if they could put Mum's meds, anti depressant and liquid paracetamol into yogurts and soups etc. I said as she is refusing to eat perhaps not a good idea and suggested patches may help instead. The nurse told me she had fed Mum some soup at lunchtime and porridge for breakfast.
Anyway then what upset me was how she crushed tablets into the liquid paracetamol and then knelt down in front of Mum and insisted she take each of the 3 desert spoons otherwise 'Mum wouldn't be able to get out of bed'. I was quite appalled! Poor Mum did not want it and was looking so distressed!

My issues are they will be making her food (which she will not be able to refuse from this particular nurse) taste absolutely horrible by adding medication to it. I suggested patches for her meds instead. Mum isn't fit or strong enough to fight against this forceful insistence albeit she is probably being cruel to be kind, it still just seems so wrong.

I want to speak with the GP to find out if there is another method of administering essential medication rather than having this added to food.

Mum is sipping water voluntarily which is an improvement so must surely become more hydrated.

Another question I need to ask why the nurse now wants to feed her even if she refuses, why didn't it happen before she became emaciated??? Poor Mum complains of feeling sick! I now have visions of her being under huge pressure to eat against her wishes.

yours faithfully

 

[piedwarbler]

My mum had crushed paracetamols given to her in water which again I think was cruel and unnecessary. It seems to me that there is sometimes a lack of thought and empathy in how the person on the receiving end of this foul tasting stuff feels! I totally agree.
My understanding is that doctors can prescribe all these meds - or most of them - in liquid form.
I think that you could ask the GP to write up liquid meds. The care home can't change the formulation without a new prescription. Some drugs are dangerous if crushed. If they have an enteric coating they are not meant to be crushed.
I am furious on your behalf about this. I hope you can get the support you need from the GP to help you. X

 

[rajahh]

i have been in a similar situation,i was lacking in confidence,but i found the strength to be my mum's voice. Its hard,i do understand how you feel,but it is wrong to be force fed anything.x

Wolfs girl I too was not confident but like Kassy realised I had to be my husbands voice

You know her, you love her take strength from that

 

[starryuk]

My understanding is that doctors can prescribe all these meds - or most of them - in liquid form.

Calpol is paracetamol in suspension.. I bought the 6+ Calpol for mum when she could not take the tablets. Admittedly you need a few teaspoons to achieve the right amount, but it might taste better. And you can administer it with an oral syringe of course if you need to.

 

[Wolfsgirl]

Dignity Health

Hi and thank you all it is very reassuring to me. I just found out from my brother this nurse fed Mum soup yesterday despite her protests. When does 'no' suddenly get changed to 'yes'.

Anyway I found the following extract from www.dignityhealth.org sorry don't know how to or even if I am allowed to make it a link. Off to the home now to make sure I get there before lunch and will speak with the nurse in strong terms.

Dignity Health:

Question: But isn’t that starving a person?
Answer:
No. Remember, the person is not dying because she is not eating. She has stopped eating because she is
dying. Starving is an emotionally loaded word that usually refers to someone who wants food and would eat it if
he had some. But a person who has stopped eating and drinking has actually simply begun the natural process
of dying. These persons rarely feel hungry and sometimes even the smell or thought of food is nauseating.

 

[FifiMo]

Wolfsgirl - brilliant email! I hope they respond in a positive manner and that the GP ensures that the medication is in a form that can easily be administered.

Another thing that I thought about - if you know what the other tablets are that she is on, you can do your own investigative work too. Next time you're in a large supermarket speak to the chemist and ask them if any of the tablets your mum is on can be obtained in either liquid format or as a patch. (Knowledge is power when you find that the only reason for them not doing it is that they just use what is convenient for them!)

Even if the tablets she is on are not able to be given in another way, then the GP should review the medication anyway and consider if there are alternatives. This would be even more compelling if she is not eating as some drugs have a corrosive effect on the stomach if not taken with food!

Your mum must be so relieved she has you to look out for her!

Fiona

 

[bilslin]

Hi wolfsgirl. Sooty not got any advice but just reading your thread and wanted to say, be strong and hope you get the meds sorted out for your mum. Must be terrible worry for you. Sending you hugs. lindaxx

 

[Brodie]

wolfgirl - thank-you for posting the quote from dignityhealth. it helps to look at this not eating issue from a different perspective.

my dad is also starting to refuse food a little - mainly because he is choking when he eats. I saw one of his carers forcing him to eat a yoghurt when it was obvious to me that he didn't want any. I had very strong words with the nurse at his home that it was just not acceptable.

you can definitely get drugs in liquid form... but they are more expensive so you may need to push hard to get them. I have found that the communication about the way to proceed with care is not always communicated effectively between doctors, nurses and care staff so I would recommend that you ensure that everyone is on the same page once you have response back to your email.

giving calpol is a great idea - I will recommend to my dad's nursing home - as they too give him paracetamol crushed into water and my father hates it.

I really hope things become a little easier for you and your mum.

brodie x

 

[LYN T]

At my Husband's CH no one is allowed to be pressured into eating-and this is what the nurse was doing to your Mum.

When my Husband was at home he went through a phase of spitting out his meds (some liquid/some tablets) I asked the SW if I could put the meds into food. He said that he would have to consult with P's consultant as it changes the effectiveness in some cases. Would that particular Nurse have that knowledge?

I hate to hear older people being bullied like that-patience is what is needed. A smiling face and reassurance helps too.

Good email

Take care

Lyn T