Help appreciated - support / LPA / abuse

Winnie19

New member
Aug 10, 2022
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Is anyone able to share suggestions about what to do and how they addressed / coped with similar situations please? I’m struggling.

> Is there anything you can do when someone refuses to engage with the medical profession, or just says they are fine and fabricates / lies about their situation, or accuses you, but desperately needs support for their own good?

> What can you do when a donor cancels an LPA but you (the attorney) know they don’t have the reasoning to do this? Especially when they get a solicitor to do it, but he is lied to. I can find no guidance.

> I think dementia is advancing and she is increasingly struggling with many parts of day to day life, whilst I’m finding it demanding to cope (and remain patient) with constant accusations and lies being spread, along with abuse. Any suggestions for support please?

A bit of background for context, hopefully brief, but I could write a book (like I'm sure many of you could):

Mother is late 80s and has always been challenging, negative, manipulative, abusive and created her own truth. No real friends / acquaintances. Has long talked to herself making things up, mixing events and people to create false events and then writes and rewrites notes of these “events”. Can never be persuaded that she has misunderstood something or is wrong. Has always been forgetful and loses things (or hides and forgets), which is now continuous – even taking up carpets/floor boards to hide things. She trusts no one, except maybe two nieces who have not visited in 30 years, are self absorbed and will not engage/assist/support me and just make things worse. Regularly says she loses days/weeks/months when she has no idea what's happened and it's just not her. Despite this I regularly visited to support my late father and he made me promise to support my mother, which I’ve tried to honour.

I don’t think she’s ever been fully well in my lifetime, and I’ve seen a decline over many years. Whenever I see/speak to her she expects to be dead the next day due to how she feels. Five/six years ago I gently suggested she see a GP in response to complaints of “illness in her head”, which made her furious. I made her GP aware of what was happening but she declined to engage – and I still get abuse over this. The GP suggested she’s the type of person who will only get investigated/supported after an accident results in a hospital stay and I must demand tests if she is ever admitted. He also rightly suggested I’d be the one carrying the can as the focus for her frustration and abuse as she deteriorates.

I had a LPA for her for about eight years, which I was surprised she’d signed but was done at the same time as for my late father (who I supported for some years and he couldn’t have been more different). About six years ago I registered her LPA (at her request) with one of her financial providers to support her, and it was fine until a year ago when she demanded I remove it as she no longer liked my name (as POA) included on her statements – at least that is what she said. Only two weeks earlier she’d asked me to register the LPA more widely as she said she was increasingly struggling with financial providers, but then disassociated this request. I removed the LPA, as the rules, although I was concerned about her decision ability. A few months later she started claiming she was getting calls to advise I was undertaking illegal activity on her account, despite me removing the LPA - I contacted the provider and they confirmed all this was fabricated. She then made up a lot more about me, announced she did not want to see me, would get support elsewhere and refused visits/calls. In hindsight I shouldn’t have accepted this, but it was a relief after a lot of abuse.

After two months she started to call and want to see me again, now furious the LPA was not registered and wanted me to register it again (and wider again), then accused me of more illegal activity plus saying she felt ill and confused. I was allowed to visit and was shocked at her confusion and mess of paperwork. I contacted the GP again but with covid booster focus at the time they just issued a drug prescription and a blood test form over the phone to me, which when I delicately tried to raise saw me ordered out of the house again for several months. I provided a long letter updating the GP on all the events and symptoms. Days later I received letters from the Office of the Public Guardian (OPG) removing the LPA and a letter from a solicitor demanding I send it and other documents I was supposed to have stolen (all fabricated) - and this was all started before she had contacted me demanding the LPA was registered. I wrote to the OPG to challenge the removal, but have had no response despite confirmation of delivery. I challenged the solicitor but he just said he’d been instructed, met her and found her fully capable of making decisions – unbelievable when she forgets why she’s gone into another room at home and is in a mess. I asked my mother and she initially claimed she knew nothing of this, then it must have been a mistake by the solicitor, then it was only temporary as she cleared my name of illegal activity, then that the solicitor was unqualified and trying to take her over and his doing, then that he had told her he had to be her LPA and executor etc. The GP then rang and apparently my mother simply said she’s fine, I was wasting his time and he was not to engage with me again. I believe he arranged for some form of care coordination visit, but when they rang to arrange she declined and they just accepted this.

After a few months break from visiting (just ~2-5 calls most days, mainly to tell me I was horrible!) she’s now demanding my support again. She said someone else was helping her in this time, but has fallen out with them as they were dishonest - and she's willing to forgive my illegal activities! She’s even more confused, in a mess and frail, but still belligerent.

Sorry this is long! It's very very much a summary. Many thanks for any suggestions.
 

Louise7

Volunteer Host
Mar 25, 2016
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Hello @Winnie19 welcome to Talking Point but sorry to hear of the difficulties that you have been having. There's a lot of information in your message but I'll try to focus on your initial questions as these seem to be the main issues.

Is there anything you can do when someone refuses to engage with the medical profession, or just says they are fine and fabricates / lies about their situation, or accuses you, but desperately needs support for their own good?

It's common for those with dementia to say that they are fine and to not want to discuss things with their doctor. In some cases a letter to the GP listing symptoms/ problems can help, and the GP could then ask the person to come in under the guise of a general check-up, wellness check etc. It seems that you have previously tried this though and if your mother refuses to engage with the doctor then they are right, it will usually take a crisis of some sort before something can be done to assess/diagnose your mother.

What can you do when a donor cancels an LPA but you (the attorney) know they don’t have the reasoning to do this? Especially when they get a solicitor to do it, but he is lied to. I can find no guidance.

If the solicitor was satisfied that your mother had mental capacity at the time he acted on her instructions to revoke the LPA it will be difficult for you to prove otherwise, particularly with no supporting medical evidence. How long ago did you write to the OPG to challenge this? They do seem to have quite lengthy backlogs at the moment and if they are looking into the matter it might take some time for you to get a response.

I think dementia is advancing and she is increasingly struggling with many parts of day to day life, whilst I’m finding it demanding to cope (and remain patient) with constant accusations and lies being spread, along with abuse. Any suggestions for support please?

It sounds like the GP may have already contacted social services, hence the proposed care co-ordination visit, but if you feel that your mother is struggling to cope and is vulnerable and at risk then you can contact social services yourself to raise these concerns. I can appreciate how the constant accusations and abuse you are receiving from your mother must be making you feel and you probably need to step away, for your own health.

Sorry not to be of much help but as this is a complex situation I'd recommend that you give the Dementia Connect Support line a call as they will be able to provide advice and support. They open at 9am tomorrow - details here:

 

Bod

Registered User
Aug 30, 2013
1,974
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Oh dear what a situation.
I can only agree with the GP, it's going to take a crisis to bring this to a head.
When that does happen, it might be best not to accept any careing responsibility, let the "authorities" take the blame for what ever Care is put in place for her(inc Care home placement)

Bod
 

silkiest

Registered User
Feb 9, 2017
869
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Hi @Winnie19, If your mum was deemed capable to cancel her POA she should also be capable of agreeing to a new one. I would prepare the forms for health and finance online (at https://www.gov.uk/power-of-attorney/make-lasting-power ) and then complete them when she is in one of her phases when she wants help.
My dad is resisting medical help at the moment and he seems to be in the early stages of dementia with personality changes and memory loss. I have been dismissed by 2 GP's at his surgery but with the help of an Admiral Nurse I have finally got a different GP in the practice to visit him and although dad insists he is ok the dr is planning a follow up visit so I'm keeping my fingers crossed.
I would say I use a "scattergun" method of getting help, in the last few weeks I have had 3 phone calls with social services and numerous ones with the admiral nurse and GP surgery plus anyone else who I thought would give me or my parents any support.
 

Winnie19

New member
Aug 10, 2022
6
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Thank you Louise7.

As you say, I've tried that with the GP. A couple of years ago as a result my mother said a nurse checked her blood pressure and had a chat and that was it apparently - she claimed the nurse said she fine. Last year and earlier this year I suggested the same but the GP was not interested (due to Covid) unless I could take her to hospital for a blood test - no chance. She's very good at saying what a person wants to hear, but then behind their back says/acts totally the opposite. I had the same with my father where she told people he was fine and sitting next to her on the sofa, when he was actually in hospital seriously ill. I suppose I should write to the GP again and update with recent events, but she's suspicious as soon as anyone contacts her and I get the backlash.

Regards the LPA it is now six months since original letter. I wrote a follow-up and both were signed for, but no response. I visited the solicitor shortly before I received the revocation as I found a receipt from him in her house and he wasn't the usual solicitor my parents had used for 30+ years (and he's actually a "consultant" to their wills and probate department). I outlined her state and some recent events and he said he would check to satisfy himself of her capacity, but I received the revocation less than a week later so I assume it was put in motion prior to this. I also checked with my parents long term solicitors, but he'd written to get all files from them - they suggested they'd refused to carry out some of my mothers requests a few years earlier. My mother still tells her bank and other providers that I have an LPA and expects me to act like I do. When I say it doesn't work that way, she wants "a private agreement" between us. Frustrating! I am extremely careful as I'm regularly accused of theft of money, documents and belongings etc.

Thank you for the suggestion of contacting social services direct. I shudder to think of the outcome as I went through it with my late father with her not letting them in, telling them to leave, cancelling them, accusations of theft, racism etc., but will have a try. The difficulty may be the means assessment as she's not badly off, but will refuse to pay and I'm not in a position to pay privately like I did for my father as I had an LPA.

Thank you also for the support line details.
 

Winnie19

New member
Aug 10, 2022
6
0
Oh dear what a situation.
I can only agree with the GP, it's going to take a crisis to bring this to a head.
When that does happen, it might be best not to accept any careing responsibility, let the "authorities" take the blame for what ever Care is put in place for her(inc Care home placement)

Bod
Thanks Bod. I think that is wise advise.
 

Winnie19

New member
Aug 10, 2022
6
0
Hi @Winnie19, If your mum was deemed capable to cancel her POA she should also be capable of agreeing to a new one. I would prepare the forms for health and finance online and then complete them when she is in one of her phases when she wants help.
My dad is resisting medical help at the moment and he seems to be in the early stages of dementia with personality changes and memory loss. I have been dismissed by 2 GP's at his surgery but with the help of an Admiral Nurse I have finally got a different GP in the practice to visit him and although dad insists he is ok the dr is planning a follow up visit so I'm keeping my fingers crossed.
I would say I use a "scattergun" method of getting help, in the last few weeks I have had 3 phone calls with social services and numerous ones with the admiral nurse and GP surgery plus anyone else who I thought would give me or my parents any support.
I had the same thought that if the solicitor said she was fine to cancel, try for a new LPA and have looked into this. The difficulty is finding a witness that fulfils the criteria and will sign. One neighbour appreciates she has dementia and will not sign, the other is no longer on speaking terms with either of us due to some of her actions. There's no one else that can witness it correctly. I have to be very careful as she's made so many accusations against me - I try and follow the rules meticulously and document everything I do in case anything is ever challenged/investigated.

I think one of the most difficult things for me is what she has told others and her being believed. The solicitor obviously didn't believe me and asked some strange questions about my business and personal situation which I assume came from something my mother had said to him. Last year I had a near neighbour shouting and swearing at me that I was disgraceful for trying to transfer her house to my name, stealing money and belongings, tying to force her into a care home threatening to empty her house if she goes away etc etc - it turned out she'd been knocking on his door and making these accusations in tears, and he believed her. He sees her as a lovely frail little old lady that I'm taking advantage of. I advised him to report me to the police but he unfortunately never did. In her bank last week they took her aside privately, and afterwards she said they were suspicious of me and wanted to check I wasn't forcing her to do anything - she only wanted to query a delayed statement.

I'm hesitant to push too widely as even one call to the GP led to months of hell and made things worse for me. You're lucky that your dad lets a GP visit... Good luck!
 

Winnie19

New member
Aug 10, 2022
6
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Who witnessed the LPA deed of revocation, solicitor or A N Other?
I don't know. Is there a way to find out? The revocation letter from the OPG doesn't state.

I am assume it was this new solicitor as they also wrote demanding I returned the LPAs to them (and documents I was supposed to have, but she'd put under her floorboards). However the person she was dealing with is listed as someone providing consultancy services to their probate department.
 

nitram

Registered User
Apr 6, 2011
30,291
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Bury
Don't think you can find out the signatory.

My take on your situation is that you either back out, accept flak from your mum, and let others accept full responsivity or challenge the legality of the renunciation which will be a long, stressful, and probably expensive course, with no guarantee of success.

I don't think there is any half way option.

If an application for deputy is made you should be told, if an application for LPA is made you should be told if the option to notify people is selected on the application.
 

Winnie19

New member
Aug 10, 2022
6
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Don't think you can find out the signatory.

My take on your situation is that you either back out, accept flak from your mum, and let others accept full responsivity or challenge the legality of the renunciation which will be a long, stressful, and probably expensive course, with no guarantee of success.

I don't think there is any half way option.

If an application for deputy is made you should be told, if an application for LPA is made you should be told if the option to notify people is selected on the application.
Thanks nitram.

It seems everything is about challenging an existing LPA, rather than challenging the revocation of an LPA. I can't find anything on this and it strikes me as a fault in the system as it just needs someone to get a signature on a very basic form to revoke an LPA and potentially create untold hardship and damage, particularly by removing access to manage finances etc. The OPG letter simply states it is revoked with no mention of any appeal process.

It's been suggested to me that the solicitor / probate consultant was positioning to take over managing my mothers affairs - indeed my mother has latterly suggested this and claims to be no longer dealing with him, but then who knows as she's less than reliable! If you tell her something she will repeat it 10 minutes later as facts from the news. Her old solicitor also thinks a new will has been made, but again who knows.

You're right that it does seem the only way is for a costly legal challenge and court action, which I assume would result in a deputyship instead. I guess to wait for when it's critical and a capacity assessment can't be avoided, and then progress straight to a deputyship.

Thanks for your support.
 

nitram

Registered User
Apr 6, 2011
30,291
0
Bury
it strikes me as a fault in the system as it just needs someone to get a signature on a very basic form to revoke an LPA and potentially create untold hardship and damage,
Just like a will, testator and witness sign, no formal check on testamentary capacity.
No way of challenging other than legal action.

If you successfully challenged the revocation on the grounds your mother lacked capacity I think OPG/COP would revert to you as LPA as you were her choice when she had capacity.

Even with LPA you would still get flak, don't know whether you would find this easier to put up with than flak with no LPA.
 

silkiest

Registered User
Feb 9, 2017
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What a sad state of affairs @Winnie19, it looks like the only thing you can do is withdraw your support as much as possible and wait for a crisis to occur. Someone will hopefully believe you then
 

Scarlet Lady

Registered User
Apr 6, 2021
582
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I agree with @silkiest . This is a truly impossible situation, @Winnie19 . Dementia or no dementia, your mum sounds like she has always been a nightmare to deal with. As hard as it may be, I think you have to step back and then let the inevitable happen. It’s very sad that so many professionals have been taken in by her behaviour, but there may be little you can do about that. However, you cannot be tossed around like flotsam at the mercy of whatever she happens to say at any given moment. Stop listening to her, step back from the caring role and see what happens. I have never said (or thought) this about any other person with dementia, but your mother really does sound like the architect of her own misfortunes. There is a limit on how much some people can be helped. I’m so sorry that this is a negative post and wish you all the best going forward.
 

canary

Registered User
Feb 25, 2014
25,074
0
South coast
I had a similar thing with mum accusing me of stealing from her, hitting her and abusing her. She told the neighbours and I could see them giving me odd looks. I havent been able to reply sooner, because I cant bring myself to write down what she said and did,

Dementia cant be hidden forever, though. Eventually she was accusing the neighbours of dreadful things, writing them letters and posting them through their door. The woman across the road contacted the police because she said mum was harassing her and she was constantly getting into arguments with the neighbours. She was behaving bizarrely in public and started wandering at night banging on random peoples doors in the wee small hours because she was lost.

I could do nothing because she told SS that she was perfectly fine so they just crossed her off their books and most of the time she wouldnt let me in her home. Eventually she ended up in hospital with a TIA and went from there to a care home. By the time this happened, though, her dementia was truly apparent and nobody thought there was nothing wrong with her. Eventually it will all come out.
xx
 

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