Guilty/EPA Registration!

[Lucille]

The registered EPA arrived for mum today. I cried when I opened it.

However, I was also a little disturbed that it was sent by recorded delivery but was signed for by the postman!!! And, I can't remember how many copies I asked for and it looks like it's been tampered with. I will have to ring PGO tomorrow to see if they have a record of copies sent. They had sent back all mum's bank statements etc (as I'd applied for a fee waiver). So if someone has taken a copy, they also have all her bank details. As if the whole bloody thing isn't upsetting enough.

Will keep you posted (no pun intended!)

x

 

[sue38]

Dick,

If you and Mary have EPA's in place you do not need to worry about the changes.

According to the course on Tuesday the PGO reckon that there is misuse of EPA's in about 15% of cases and that is the reason for the changes. I agree that the PGO start with the stance 'guilty until proved innocent'. The lecturer's view was that there are unscrupulous people who will abuse POA's for their own benefit and if someone is determined to take advantage of the vulnerable the changes will do little to change that.

The fact is that the vast majority of us just want to do the right thing for our loved ones and have had this responsibility placed upon us when would much rather that they were able to do it for themselves.

Lucille,

You have done the right thing. As for the mistakes...welcome to the PGO!!

 

[sooty]

Lucille you have done the right thing. When I was over in the Uk in May mom was adament she could still go to the bank but she was drawing out large sums and I was finding it all over the house under cushions, plant pots and in with underwear etc. With the car gone she soon forgot how to ring for a taxi gave up getting one and as I had already spoken to the bank about her large withdrawals and her dementia the person who has the POA with me was able to take a signed copy, certified by our solictor and register it with the bank and now she delivers a set sum each fortnight to Mom to pay the cleaner, gardener, mobile hairdresser etc. Mom seems to have forgotten she would not have agreed to this two months ago and is happy to just have someone else get it for her. She cannot get receipts for most of this and my question is does anyone know if any money given to her has to be accounted for down to the last penny. It would show on her bank statement anyway. Sooty

 

[Tender Face]

A little bit of calm ...?????

Dear Lucille... deep breaths ..... it's horrid, I know. And how a ruddy piece of paper can reduce someone to tears is criminal. It happens. Don't be ashamed. It would be unnatural if you didn't feel emotion. This is not simply a 'paper exercise'. I hope some of it is relief that you have had the courage to go through the process so far.

Unless things have changed already (can't keep the pace I'm afraid) the PGO/COP do not provide copies. You get one registered form. That is the bit of paperwork you now need to keep safe and have certified copies made of if you need to .....

If anyone has taken a copy of your mum's bank details they are pretty useless on their own. However, it does concern me that they accompanied the EPA which carries both her and your signature and if you have any reservations that anyone might have compromised the security of her account details, and the authorisation on her account(s) you need to contact the bank PDQ.

In theory, the bank should simply change the name of your mum's account to something along the lines of 'Lucille as EPA for ......' They may decide, because of security concerns, that it is prudent to change the account number. It will help you avoid the headache and heartache of yet more paperwork if the bank can offer new details immediately to send off to all the organisations who need to be informed at the same time as recording the registered EPA.

Much love and thinking of you, Karen, x

 

[Tender Face]

She cannot get receipts for most of this and my question is does anyone know if any money given to her has to be accounted for down to the last penny. It would show on her bank statement anyway. Sooty

Hi Sooty .... I raised a similar question some time ago .... very anxious that I could not account for either large or small amounts of money. Sure, I can show accounts of the amounts of cash I have withdrawn on mum''s behalf - but how can I even prove I've even handed over that cash to her and not kept it for myself?

I'm very much with Dick's sentiments in his reply to a post I made on this thread earlier (thanks Dick, by the way - and please be as blunt as you like! I crave blunt and honest!

To some degree, yes I do restrict the amount of cash mum has available to her but I am blowed if I have to account for handing over cash and she decides to lunch with a friend, buy some outrageous jacket on the rare opportunity she gets a shopping trip - or simply treats herself to a 'Walnut Whip' when she can manage to get herself to the corner shop ......

I confess I find the whole EPA busniess infuriating ...... at this stage of my mother's dementia it is a restriction and a burden for us both ......

Karen (TF), x

 

[Brucie]

Excellent advice from Karen.

One point though

I confess I find the whole EPA business infuriating

I believe this is becoming the case with all sorts of things these days.

My car started playing up this week and with a potentially huge repair bill, I decided I had to replace it, partly because I rely on it absolutely to get to see Jan [the rail fares each visit would otherwise be £40!].

Apparently these days one can't pay cash [huh, not that this was an option ] because of possible money laundering, a debit card can't be used, etc so it becomes a real trial just to buy something that - last time when i bought the present car - I simply handed over my debit card and a large wodge of money just moved from my account to the garage's.

One must believe that the world is full of money launderers and vile people, for all the restrictions we have now...

 

[germain]

QUESTIONS RE REGISTERING AN EPA

I'm not sure of the benefits of registering the EPA. My sister and I have had one for Mum for many years. We have third party authority with the bank and are appointees for her pensions etc. She doesn't have a lot of capital, no property and the family are part funding her care. We pay with cheques signed on her behalf and everyone is happy with this. I have always kept full accounts (probably because I'm a control freak !!!! )
Looking at the thread it seems that registering would cause us more problems than it solves.

What do others think ?

Regards to all
Germain

 

[Lucille]

Unless things have changed already (can't keep the pace I'm afraid) the PGO/COP do not provide copies. You get one registered form. That is the bit of paperwork you now need to keep safe and have certified copies made of if you need to .....

Hi Karen

Before I sent it off, I asked them on the phone about copies and they said yes, it wasn't a problem. With the original document there were five photocopies, but also bearing an unphotocopied, i.e. original court of protection stamp. Thing is, I can't remember if I asked for five plus orig, or six or ...

Am fine now, just need to double check with them when they open for business this morning. Sometimes the thought of doing things is often worse than the main event ... she says in an optimistic kind of way

Germain. You are right in that it does seem a hassle. However, as some on here will testify, not having a registered EPA can lead to huge problems with some institutions. Also, if you have an unregistered document and you think the donor has become or is becoming mentally incapable you have duty to register it. Like you, I am appointee for mum's pension/benefits and have POA at the bank already. But, in connection with the latter, I walk a fine line in requesting things that (up until receiving the reg'd EPA), I probably legally wasn't supposed to do. All in her interests, of course. But there are many that would take advantage, hence registration, I suppose.

Thanks all. Certainly a minefield, isn't it!

x

 

[Brucie]

I'm not sure of the benefits of registering the EPA

In my view, it is not a question of what the benefits are - it is what you are legally obliged to do.

When should an attorney apply to register the Enduring Power of Attorney (EPA)?When the attorney believes that the donor is, or is becoming, mentally incapable of managing their own affairs. The attorney is then under a legal duty to apply as soon as possible to register the EPA.

The big question always is held in the line

When the attorney believes that the donor is, or is becoming, mentally incapable of managing their own affairs

There is leeway in that. For my part, I always try to stay within legal and moral limits.

So I imagine what would happen if I were not to be there. Could Jan understand enough to write and sign a cheque? Could she work out what the value of the cheque would do to her bank balance? Could she pay the regular bills? Could she go to Tesco and buy stuff, and pay the person at the till, knowing she was paying the right amount? ... things like that.

If the answer to any of them was 'no' then the EPA should be registered - and it was. In fact Jan lost the ability to write her signature way before it was apparent she had lost the other things.

 

[Splat88]

This is another one of those difficult to decide issues " lose mental capacity" .
Surely the very definition of dementia is loss of mental capacity. We have an unregistered EPA, but Mary lives with us and so does not have to use any of her money for bills, shopping etc.
She has no idea she has any money at all unless we remind her, but then she will say "well lets spend it", and we do, on some nice steak for dinner, for all of us!!! So, are we doing wrong?
There have been times when we've used her money for doing up the house where we all live, and at present she's financing doing the garden up because she likes to sit in it.
However, she has the usual old persons view ( mine also I have to add when I see how much my son will spend on a pair of trainers!) of a distorted view of what things cost, £1 for a loaf of bread, you have to be joking!!
We don't have a formal agreement for charging her rent, so are we about to be carted off to prison for misuse of an EPA?
Because there are no issues over property and no chance of her going to the bank on her own to get cash, I had no intention of registering. But, since she really has no idea that she has loads of money, is that grounds for registering?

 

[Lucille]

... for sure, it's a tricky one. My mum can still go out, get on a bus, go to a place she knows (the bank), withdraw money and appear plausible. But, she can't remember what she ate for her dinner, whether anyone has been to see her or who they were!

If I ask her how much she has drawn or even if she's been to the bank, she says 'no' or makes something up. She doesn't deal with letters, just stuffs them in a drawer (usually the same one, so I can find them - remarkable, I know!), but it's the inability to focus on things and forward plan that she has lost. Also, a couple of months ago she did not think it unreasonable to be drawing more than twice what she had coming in!

As I don't live near her, I have been faced with the problems of trying to sort out issues on her behalf which she blithely waves away. She lives in the past a lot now and thinks that the bank manager will ring her, if there's a problem! Oh for those halcyon days of 'personal' banking!

For me, this, combined with the advice from her consultant, means that she is losing her mental capacity.

 

[chip]

Brucie. I'm in the same position clutch has gone in the car. I need it repaired. Social Worker phoned up they are still going for the guardinship and told me it will take a while for it to come through but i can challenge it. I said its not right as you could put him anywhere. I got told yes but you can get the Red Cross to take you to see him. I said WHAT you have to be joking. I'm going to see the GP next week and tell him all thats happened